what to do without reads AK in position vs limp min raise.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
FullTiltPoker
9 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($2.47)
UTG+1 ($3.96)
kickass (MP1) ($5.52)
MP2 ($5.33)
MP3 ($1.74)
CO ($5.30)
BTN ($6.32)
SB ($5.05)
BB ($4)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 9 players) kickass is MP1 :kh: :ac:
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.05, kickass raises to $0.25, 6 folds, UTG+1 raises to $0.45, kickass calls $0.20

Flop: :kd: :3s: :9c: ($0.97, 2 players)
UTG+1 checks, kickass checks

Turn: :5d: ($0.97, 2 players)
UTG+1 bets $0.45, kickass calls $0.45

River: :8s: ($1.87, 2 players)
UTG+1 goes all-in $3.06, $3.06 to kickass ($4.62)?


so this is 5nl rush without a hud cos poker tracker doesn't work on rush on my shitty mac.
no reads just this line what do you think it means. Should I just fold pre cos the limp reraise line is pretty much always aces/kings and Im not gonna be exploitable playing rush.
I fold cos i cant think of a hand I'm beating.
should i bet the flop. I was just being cautious, as he took such a strong line pre.
fold turn as he obviously has at least AK, or he's 100% fos. hoping to get to showdown so i can make a note.
whats the best way of dealing with this kind of shit.
sorry if this is a little bit "feel sorry for me" whining and the like

Sometimes it's okay to use SPR. This is one those flop. I bet flop. As played I'm not sure if I want raise turn. River is meh.

I was curious, so I checked my database for this month. I know that I've seen some weird stuff with less then half stacks lately. A lot of the time it is spazzing out, but the smaller the stack size the more comfortable they are about re-raising after limping. Interesting that I seen AA only 33% of the time in this spot though.

By the river it's extremely polarized... So I revert to this YouTube - Classic Movie Line #31


AA 3 times various stack size
J9s 20BB
77 64BB
98o 8BB
AKs Full Stack
K4s 40BB
AQs 40BB

Sigh and call and chuckle a bit when he shows you 67s, 88.

Fold.

I'd bet .60 on flop and then reassess.

@easy pre?
i think if im gonna hit the flop and still be too afraid to do anything with it on the driest board in the world, FOLD
I think I needed to bet the flop.
thanks for taking the time, much appreciated.

Easy fold, Jesus.

The limp/raise isn't always AA/KK, but it's nearly always a pocket pair. As for range, his range for me is hands that beat us. Sets and aces.

Calling this spot will cost us money in the long run, pot odds are awful. Sometimes he could be spewing with JJ or whatever, but not often enough imo.

Oh, and the flop check is fine imo for pot control, we're in position and we're not expecting him to overbet shove the river, so normally checking this flop will mean c/c to showdown is inexpensive.

oh forgot I took out the part where i folded, yeah that bit was easy, I didn't know what to do the rest of the hand. like I said hoping to get to showdown cheap so I could make a note. Yr right it isn't always AA/KK but most of the time that I've seen it done it has been apart from one guy that was doing it every time anyone raised his limps (he didn't last long). Mostly I give the move respect cos its usually limp shove not limp min raise.
anyways thanks for chipping in

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Oh, and the flop check is fine imo for pot control, we're in position and we're not expecting him to overbet shove the river, so normally checking this flop will mean c/c to showdown is inexpensive.

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I think flop check is bad. Bet like .30, be ready to get it in.

Anyone disagree?

What are you getting value from when you bet the flop? Maybe a few worse kings. Other than that, unless we had reads that he peels with second pair, I don't see what.

This is a K high dry flop, probably one of the best flops we could get if we wanted to bluff cbet. Which means that it can't be very good for a value bet.

I like checking and make him think that all his second pairs are good and check call to showdown or bet the turn if he checks or even raise it if the board gets drawy.

Now obviously when he shoves the river we have reason to think that he probably hit his two outer, so fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daviddem

What are you getting value from when you bet the flop? Maybe a few worse kings. Other than that, unless we had reads that he peels with second pair, I don't see what.

This is a K high dry flop, probably one of the best flops we could get if we wanted to bluff cbet. Which means that it can't be very good for a value bet.

I like checking and make him think that all his second pairs are good and check call to showdown or bet the turn if he checks or even raise it if the board gets drawy.

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this has to be the worst level of all time or you have lot lot lot to work on in your game

It's not a level, I do have lots of work to do on my game (or I wouldn't be here). Please explain what's so wrong with that. He limp reraised pre. You think he does that often with KQ? If not, then what are we getting value from when we bet the flop? Not only are there hardly any hands we get value from, but we can also easily be bluff check raised.

So I like checking the flop, I like calling the turn, which he might well be betting with second pair after we checked behind otf, and I also call a reasonable river bet, not the shove.

Is that so wrong?

edit: the part of my post where I talked about raising the turn I can see was dumb. Not so sure about betting if he checks. Also, I mistakenly wrote check/call. I meant call down obv.

that line is what I was going for prolly would've called pot sized on the end at most.
Other lines were to turn my hand face up bet the flop and fold to aggression which would likely come if he's limp raising anything other than AA/KK then checking he's prolly gonna bluff check raise the flop or he does have AA/KK. either way I'm fucked no?

I'm with David, I share his logic. I don't think there's many hands in villain's range that we beat that he continues with against aggression. Villain rarely has KQ here, so really it's just TT-QQ we're beating in his range, perhaps weaker pairs but he's likely to snap fold these to a flop bet anyway. Focussing on TT-QQ, if we bet the flop, we're giving villain a chance to fold, which he will do a good % of the time. Checking allows him to think his hand might be good, so he either leads out or c/c to showdown. Checking seems to have a higher ev against TT-QQ than betting, that's just my opinion though I will point out, if I'm wrong I'm more than happy to be corrected.
And if we're crushed, checking normally keeps the pot small for us to call down, so we can usually see a showdown here. On this occasion, villain makes this impossible, which is just fine really, he's either losing value or bluffing too aggressively, both good for us in the long run.
I like the flop check, but I do want to see the arguments for betting.

edit
I forgot to add that checking gives AQ and any junk he might have the chance to start firing.

If you really think he only limp reraises KK+ then you should fold pre. If not then his range is prob wider than you think. And when we bet small non full stackers tend to spaz

That's right, if we call pre it's because we think he possibly limp-reraises wider than KK+. That does not exclude KK+ from his range though. So when he shoves over your flop bet, what is it going to be? KK+ or spazz? Because honestly, when you call the limp reraise and you bet this flop, you're pretty much screaming that you have AK...