Would you agree with this statement?
'To keep it simple at micro stakes and HU you should never call a 3-bet oop.'
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Would you agree with this statement?
'To keep it simple at micro stakes and HU you should never call a 3-bet oop.'
def not never but i will say that i am a big loser flatting 3bets oop throughout my poker career
You can def. call min 3b from donks to set mine (if their stack is big enough to justify it).
Pretty dumb to come up with a general rule like this.
10nl, 150bb deep with villain who three bets very light, has folded to 1/1 4 bets, and spazzes in 3 bet pots. He 3 bets your CO raise from BU with AA.
call.
lock thread IMO
It is perfectly reasonable to make a blanket statement like this when you are first learning to tighten up the leaks in your game (as i know you are Harley). Just don't get carried away and become superhuge nit that loses because you never play a pot.
For someone who is already playing a solid, nitty/TAG base game, its ok to flat OOP sometimes with some hands (99+, AQ/AK, w/e) vs people you have reads vs, but don't be doing it vs randoms for obvious reasons. (My definition of random here = full stacked, reloads, appears competent lacking solid reads.)
There are exceptions to every rule in poker except the one about folding AA preflop, so deviate accordingly.
FYI I wasn't making a statement I was asking for opinions on something I read.
At 2nl and 5nl I think this is a fine rule. It's gonna save the average nano stakes player from getting into tough spots that are gonna cost alot of money due to a lack of good postflop skills. The big exception is calling min 3bets to setmine as daviddem said.
At these stakes I'd rather get 99+, AQ/AK in pre vs villains we have reads on (assuming that since we're flatting because we're ahead of villains range, we can 4bet shove and get calls with worse enough, often enough for it to be profitable). I'm talking about solid reads ie; we have seen villain call shoves with Ax and/or small pps.
@ 10nl, from what I've seen from my short time there so far, the game changes enough that our postflop skills come into play more and flatting is gonna be better more often.
Also...
General rules are what make a solid foundation for any thing someone is trying to learn. Whats dumb is thinking that anythng can be learned effectively without this solid foundation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
And who the fuck are you to call for someone elses thread to be locked?
Stfu and stay out of the thread if you have an issue with it.
i am still playing micros. i was a nit in calling 3bet OOP. lately i have been calling TT-QQ,AK, in general and sometimes lower PP depending on villain reads and implied odds i get, i call 22-99 only if i get at least 14:1 implied odds pre flop and ussually is to get a set, very rare trying do some bluff depending on board texture.. for me KK+ its always a 4bet shove and/or 4 bet and call a 5bet shove from villain.
when i call 3bet OOP with AK i hope for TP+FD, gutshot+FD , FD or Axy flop where x,y are smaller then T. these would be ideal in my opinion for an AK in a spot like this. i also cbet 2/3 pot dry low flops since i have pretty good fold equity vs a QQ+, AK 3bet range of villain if he folds AK .
K high,Q high,KQx, AQx, AKQ, flops with no FD and/or straight draws for us, are really strange to play with AK in a 3bet spot
AK vs QQ+, AK on
K high flop ( no FD and/or straight draws) : we beat 6QQ combos
we tie with 6AK combos
we get beat by 1KK,3AA =4 combos, so this flop is a b/f for me
Q high flop (no FD and/or straight draws): i cbet 2/3 cause if he folds AK , 9 combos out of 18 possible from its range ,then its plus EV play, even if the flop gives him a FD, he can still fold 8 combos of AK and still is a EV plus play.
KQx , AQx, AKQ, flops ( no FD an/or straight draws): we tie the best case and lose all other, so i like to c/f even tho sometimes i fold a tie hand.
when calling TT-QQ in a 3bet OOP i really would like a set. any A high flop w/o set for me is a c/f since he doesnt fold enough combos so we can make a profitable bet on flop. max J high dry flops w/o set for me i cbet 2/3 OOP for the same reason, i need him to fold AK from its range and my play its close to 0 EV.
if villains 3bet range is just QQ+, then i fold all except KK+, cause very rare i will get right implied odds for calling wider then that.
if he's 3bet range is wider, then calling TT-QQ,AK is more profitable.
While I think there is definitely some credit to this, it's not quite so clear when we get 3bet when we hold JJ or AK (sometimes QQ too). I don't like 4betting these hands, yet folding them to a 3bet is way too nitty at micros. Reads on villain is crucial in these spots, if we know he only 3bets tight then maybe we can fold JJ and AK, but if we think he can have like A4s or 89s etc in his range, then calling seems optimal.
Blanket statements like this might be useful to players who don't want to pay attention to what villain is doing, but I think it's better to play the villain, not the hand. AK/JJ is a fold to 3bet against some people, call to others and 4bet to the idiots who will get it in with AQ/AJ/KQ/88 etc.
I suggest people take note of villain tendancies instead of using merely your two cards and betting action as the only improtant information.
Supa, fwiw, I'm at 50nl atm and I still rarely flat 3bets OOP. You put yourself in so many spots postflop where you don't know where you're at and it can really fuck with your winrate if you try to playmaster everyone.
I'm not saying don't ever do it, but you need to have a solid read, and a clear, concise plan that you're willing to execute postflop before you attempt to do it. Otherwise you're just torching the extra 5-10bb.
Lets get this straight. Lets give players just starting out an excuse to not know why they are doing what they are doing. Then later on, when they get reads lets have them know when to and when not to make that decision they have never thought about.
solid
A blanket statement like that is a great way to teach someone bad habits and to spew money. Like everyone else wrote, there are times to flat a 3bet oop, but it really depends more upon your reads on the villain than it does anything else. The rule might be something that a super-multi-tabling monster might follow to keep himself out of trouble but most of us probably shouldn't blindly follow a statement like that.
"Never Flat 3bets OOP" is fine as a general rule. I don't think anyone is advocating it as a blanket statement. There's always going to be an exception to any rule anyway. If you can find one in this case, fine. Otherwise, get it in or fold.
Also, stop calling for threads to be locked because you think something is stupid. Wrong or right, there's still value in having a discussion about it. Getting butt hurt over a thread you think is dumb just makes you look like an ass.
Oh my God, you're so smart and witty, please teach me to own forum threads like you do!!!!1Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
Seriously though, stop being an ass. That's not what anyone is saying at all in this thread. StarGrinder basically just hit the nail on the head and said what I said but better. When a person is just starting out in poker, and have been a losing player/fish their whole lives, its usually necessary to start out with general rules such as these and "never fold KK PF 100bb deep."
When that person is playing a solid style that is already breakeven/winning then they can look to more marginal spots to eek out more profit. This is one of those spots where you can work on it away from the table vs specific regs that abuse you IP (BTN vs CO, BB vs BTN, etc) and you can work to exploit them BEFORE you play a hand of poker.
Seems pretty obvious..?
I'm aware of this, but its still a blanket statement (you said you read it somewhere after all :P).Quote:
Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13
If he's 3betting me and I know he has AA then I'm calling?Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Bucket
phrased that incorrectly, i meant we have AA
@ everyone else, i didn't intend to offend anyone, all I'm trying to get across is that its dumb to put a blanket statement out like this. For sure a ton of people can read this and get information and understand it, but there are people who are going to read this and just stop thinking whenever they get 3 bet and know they can't raise. I know because i used to, and probably still am, like that in a ton of situations.
My point is that when we say things like "we should be c betting most k or a high flops" we may be giving advice that will help players short term win rate, but i don't think that alone is what we should do in the forum. Countless times i have found leaks in my own game that i have developed from blindly following things i have read in the forums, in articles, or whatever.
Giving someone a shortcut and saying something like "i look for 14 to 1 when i set mine" allows people to be lazy and stop evaluating their play because they trust your judgement even though they are applying it in an unprofitable situation.
Cliff notes: I know some people may be able to walk away from a blanket statement when its proper, but others wont be able to.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sasquach991
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there are plenty of times as you move up when you should flat the 3b oop as a default but at the micros probably just 4bing or folding is fine.
obv there are exceptions such as the maniac 60/49 24% 3b 3bs u in EP and u have aces and he folds a lot to 4bs u can just call and let him spew but obv these are the exceptions not the rules.