Put Hero on a Goddamn Range.

I’m starting this operation as the first in a multipart series that will be designed to break down my game to the utmost basics. I’m doing this because looking at the game as a whole, I tend to get sidetracked and miss important factors that I should be focusing on.

As the title suggests, part 1 will focus on defining my own starting range. This is a huge leak for because I’ve never clearly defined a range for each position. Although I generally play positionally oriented, my starting range is really vague, especially in mid-late positions. Obviously starting ranges can never be static (I think) but I need to come up with a foundation that I can start with and then learn to manipulate.

Table selection:

My table selection is pretty standard. I pick tables with the highest player per flop %, sit with the fish to my right and nits to my left and I’m pretty diligent about leaving the table when this dynamic changes. So I shouldn’t need to change my starting range much for now.

Uber nitty starting range:

utg- 22+, AQ+
utg1-22+, AQ+
mp1-22+, AJs+, AQo+
mp2-22+, ATs+, AJo+
HJ- 22+, A8s+, ATo+, KQ+
CO- 22 +, KTs+, KJo+, A7s+, A8o+
Bu- 22+, A2+, K9+, Q8+, J9+
SB- Same as button
BB- 22+, A8, KT+, QT+, JT+

*Note- 22 is shown in all positions because, on tables with a high % of players seeing the flop, I believe it’s profitable to open in all positions.

*Note 2- My current starting range is much wider than this (although vague) but I’m hoping to get some discussion going so I think this is a decent starting point.

My plan from this point is to drop back down to 5nl and practice forming a range for each position add or delete combos at each position. I’ll update changes here as well as post some hands that I feel are relevant to this operation. Because I tend to flake on these things I’m going to give $5 to the first person who posts in this thread if I do not update the above starting range and post at least 1 hand in this thread by 9:00pm pst. Yes I stole the idea from carrotz, but fuck off, I need some kinda motivation.

*Clarification- The 5 bucks goes to the first person to post after I don’t make the deadline.

Any and all comments, suggestions and beratings are encouraged in this thread.

Wow, that came out huge.

GJ breaking it down. Uber nitty isn't the right word at all imo but it seems good. Not sure if you wanna open the SB as wide as the BU being oop and all. Is this range for value or a bluff? Are you going to steal with this entire range vs any villain(s)?. Also KQs? ;)

the idea behind this thread is a very good one. count me in

Good plan. Now stick with it.

The way I see myself.

UTG, UTG+1: Nit
MP 1 and 2: TAG
HJ, CO BU: LAG

Quote:

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Originally Posted by chatzilla

GJ breaking it down. Uber nitty isn't the right word at all imo but it seems good. Not sure if you wanna open the SB as wide as the BU being oop and all. Is this range for value or a bluff? Are you going to steal with this entire range vs any villain(s)?. Also KQs? ;)

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Thanks chat. Yeah, uber nitty probably isn't right but going over my last 15k hands stats at 5nl (all I have on my laptop) I was running 18/14 so this is nitting up for me. It's kinda strange coz I was running liek 13/11 at 2nl over some 50k hands.

Also, I agree that in general I should be a little tighter in the sb than the button but over that 15k hands my steal % from the sb was at 42 w/ a success rate of 63.5 so again, this is nitting it up big time.

I actually think that changing this much is gonna kill my winrate at 5nl but these tactics aren't working at 10nl, and who really gives a fuck about a 5nl winrate?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rpm

the idea behind this thread is a very good one. count me in

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I'm looking forward to hearing your thoughts along the way. Your posts are always thought out extremely well, a trait I generally lack.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PutaForkInIt

Good plan. Now stick with it.

The way I see myself.

UTG, UTG+1: Nit
MP 1 and 2: TAG
HJ, CO BU: LAG

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Defo feel that this sums me up as well. The problem is that I've always accepted this as good enough, it's time to dig deeper and really figure out why I'm playing what where.

Crazy little ~350 hand session to start this off. I defo know I need to add more hands to the bu and sb, prolly the co too. For now I'll keep it as is but I'll play with adding a few combos in the next session.

This hand pretty much played itself but I need my 5 bucks so here it is.

Villain was running 77/54 over 13 hands. Doesn't really matter tho. I got kings and I'm getting it in. My crap 4bet was because my laptop hates me and I had about a half a second to get the raise in. If anybody hasn't read it I have a thread called disconnect issues in the tools forum. I'd appreciate any thoughts on the subject.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($5.02)
MP1 ($24.94)
MP2 ($1.40)
MP3 ($3.87)
CO ($5)
Button ($4.93)
SB ($12.50)
BB ($12.50)
Hero (UTG) ($5.42)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with :kd:, :kc:
Hero bets $0.30, 1 fold, MP1 raises $0.55, 6 folds, Hero raises $1, MP1 raises $1.50, Hero raises $4.12 (All-In), MP1 calls $3.37

Flop: ($10.91) :6d:, :4h:, :4d: (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($10.91) :ks: (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($10.91) :2d: (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.91


Villain shows 3d 5d (str8 flush)

Quick update. 1500 hands over a couple of sessions. Running ~15/11 which surprised me even with such a small sample. I thought it would be a bit nittier so I stoved up each range from each position and came up with an average of 15.23%. Seems really wide since this is my opening range, which means over a large sample that will be my pfr. Additionally, I feel like I'm losing some steal value from the nits so I want to open the button and sb a little wider. This could be a huge mistake tho as I'm planning on moving back up to 10nl next week and I think they'll notice a higher steal % much more there. Thoughts?

I'm also getting a good idea of where this op is going. I was worried that I wouldn't be able to come up with a process for it but it's kind of unfolding on it's own. The things that will be addressed in this thread are:

Opening range (pfr coz we're never open limping)
Limp calling range
Raise calling range
3bet range
3bet/4bet blind vs blind and blind vs button ranges.

Obv we're gonna have to start taking villains range(s) into account as this progresses but I want to define heroes' range as much as possible and then we can start manipulating it as needed.

That's about it for now. Bbq at a freinds house tonite. We'll be playing drinking, eating good food and playing music, possibly some poker if we get drunk enough :rolleyes:. Maybe get in a surf tommorow :D.

Enjoy your weekends.

from my experience at 10nl last year (this was FR, not sure what you play), the nits are still nits and don't like adjusting from being nits. it's immoral not to steal their blinds.

also, if you are one of those people who likes to abuse the shit out of the button, like i do from time to time, i'd consider opening 2.5x on the button instead of your normal raise size. that way the required fold frequency for the blinds goes down, the EV of the blind steal goes up (assuming blind's fold % stays the same), and you have an easier time getting away with opening >50% of buttons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rpm

from my experience at 10nl last year (this was FR, not sure what you play), the nits are still nits and don't like adjusting from being nits. it's immoral not to steal their blinds.

also, if you are one of those people who likes to abuse the shit out of the button, like i do from time to time, i'd consider opening 2.5x on the button instead of your normal raise size. that way the required fold frequency for the blinds goes down, the EV of the blind steal goes up (assuming blind's fold % stays the same), and you have an easier time getting away with opening >50% of buttons.

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I couldn't agree more with everything you said here, however, I got my self in trouble alot @ 10nl doing this so I'm gonna mellow out for a while this time around. Mostly I want to make sure I'm stealing with a purpose rather than just stealing because it folded around to me on the button. I did find that the regs we're less prone to noticing steals from the blinds than the button, so I'll probably be less lenient there. Of course I'll be adjusting this thought process as I need to.

2k hands into this and I think I have a good grasp on heroes' opening range so I wanna move things along.

Stats first...

http://img402.imageshack.us/img402/7827/2kstats.png


I left out the results coz I really don't want this thread to be about results, but about creating a solid foundation that I can build on and have a good understanding of that foundation. Plus it's a nano size sample, but they're pretty fucking good tho. :D As always any comments, suggestins and beratements are appreciated and encouraged.

I need to gather my thoughts and make some notes and stuff but part 2 of this op is gonna be about heroes' limp behind range. It seems like this should be pretty simple but there are plenty of times when I find myself lost here. Thoughts?

do you mean limping behind? or limp/calling a raise?

Limping behind. My bad, pretty tired when I wrote that lastnight.

supahaole looking forward to following your op sir!

GoGoGoGo

Limping behind

I spent awhile thinking about this. At first I thought it was such a grey area that it would be too difficult to generalize a limp behind range into a hand chart, but then I revisited a couple of articles from FTRs poker training section.

From Raising Behind Limpers by spoonitnow

“Suppose there are two aggressive middle position limpers, and we have 76s on the button. Here it's probably best to limp behind, since we've got a hand that plays great multi-way, and we're going to see a flop in position with a lot of money behind with at least four players. Note that this is often the case when there are 3 or more limpers whenever you have suited connectors, suited one-gappers, ace-small suited, small pairs, and other hands that get a lot of value from implied odds.”


And from Renton's Small Stakes NLHE Ring Strategy: Preflop

“The button is obviously where your hand range should be at its widest. You should be playing 2 to 3 times as many hands from the button than from under the gun. If the pot is limped to you, limp behind with any hand with potential: 43s+, 54o+, 64s+, 97o+, 85s+, all suited aces, all suited kings.”
*Note that Rentons’ quote is taken out of context and is meant for loose tables.

With these quotes in mind we can come up with a solid limp behind range in late positions and we should be able to add some of these combos to earlier positions. I also tend to limb behind with small pocket pairs in early to mid positions, which may be a leak due to losing initiative and I should address that also.

Limp behind range

UTG- N/A
UTG+1- 22-66
MP1- 22-55
MP2- 22-55, A2s-A9s
HJ- 22-55, A2s-A9s,
CO- 22-55, A2s-A9s, 76s+, 98s+, T9s+,
Bu- 22-55, A2s-A7s, K2s-KTS, 43s+, 65s+, 98s+, JTs, 54o+, 76o+, 98o+ JTo

I’m probably missing some combos here and some of these are probably glaringly obvious leaks but it a place to start.

Left out SB. Should prolly be alot narrower than button and include some QJs type hands. I'll think about it and add them when I redefine this range as a whole, which I think is gonna be needed.

i personally don't really like limping behind in any seats except the CO and BU tbh

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rpm

i personally don't really like limping behind in any seats except the CO and BU tbh

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I agree. Limping behind in EP/MP in FR is kinda bad unless you're table selection is the tits. Too often someone's raising it behind and you have to come up with a reason to set mine OOP. And I know it's rare, but set over set happens more in multi-way limped pots than it does a HU or 3-way raised pot... or at least it seems like it anyway. Curious what the math would be on something like that.

Thanks for the input guys. I was pretty sure this was a leak. It seems alot like open limping. We lose initiative and have to play oop with a shit hand.

Star, it makes sense that set over set happens more multiway, especially when we're limping in with 22-55. I defo need to get this play out of my arsenal.

How do you guys feel about the CO and BU ranges?

Also, how about the small blind? Suited broadways and small suited aces?

for me completing in SB is dependent upon three things:
- immediate pot odds
- who has limped, ie if there are fish i'll be more inclined to complete when getting like 6:1
- the stack sizes of people who have limped

i don't really have a set range i will complete, because it depends so much on those three factors. but my first choice of hands are one's that play well multiway and have "big hand potential" like Axs, Kxs, and suited connectors.

Moved back up to 10nl. Rangood for a while. Broke the motorcycle and walked away. Weekend before St. Paddys day so I believe Irish car bombs are in order. I'll get back to it tomorrow. It's not going anywhere.

Oh, gotta come up with some thoughts on calling raises pre, which I guess entails putting villain on a range too.

So lol, won $5 on cake from a raketherake freeroll. Played some $1.15 +.10 sngs and now have a total br of $12.05 even with some sick bad variance type shit yesterday, like AK< K2 type shit and couldn't win a flip to save my life. Gonna keep playing the nano sngs until I feel I can short stack 4nl with a decent roll, maybe 10 buys, dunno yet.

How bout killing that AQ and 22-77 utg? And that AJ and AT in mps? Since you wanna be nitty... :drunk:

Crush ranges whenever possible imo.

...and yeah :drunk:here's to ya!

Quick update:

runbad + (rungood*playbad) = $15.95 br