QQ on button vs. 3xbb raise and many callers

Turn is an obvious fold, just want to know what everyone thinks of my PF and flop play.

No reads/stats of a hand sample big enough worth mentioning since this was my first experiment at 5NL.
(Side note: 5NL was extremely tight compared to 2NL, it almost wasn't even fun. Anyone else have similar experiences?)

PF: UTG is pretty much all that I was worried about b/c if MP1/2 had KK+, AK than they're most likely going to reraise. I put UTG on any pocket pair, AJ+, KQs. I reraised to level the playing field, which proved to be an utter failure lol, and also see where I was at w/r/t UTG raiser.

Flop: Checked around to me. I figured no one hit since AJ is in everyones range and they're probably always going to bet with that - same thing for KJ. Someone could have QJ and checked out of fear of their kicker but 1. I already have two queens and 2. Not even sure if most players at these stakes are that sensitive to kicker trouble. Any sets are obv betting.

I bet b/c 1. I was pretty sure I had the best hand and 2. To charge for any flush draws.


Comments?
Maybe raise slightly larger PF?





Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed)

BB ($7.65)
UTG ($6.03)
UTG+1 ($5)
MP1 ($8.88)
MP2 ($5)
CO ($5.62)
Hero (Button) ($5.78)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q :diamond:, Q :club:
UTG bets $0.15, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.15, MP2 calls $0.15, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.35, SB calls $0.33, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.20, MP1 calls $0.20, MP2 calls $0.20

Flop: ($1.80) 6 :spade:, 4 :spade:, J :heart: (5 players)
SB checks, UTG checks, MP1 checks, MP2 checks, Hero bets $1.32, SB calls $1.32, 3 folds

Turn: ($4.44) 8 :spade: (2 players)
SB bets $1.24 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $4.44 | Rake: $0.29

if you're going to use QQ in your 3bet range, which is generally fine, 3bet larger. that goes for all of your 3bet range btw. a standard 3bet here against just the UTG open would be 3-4x at these stakes i imagine (and the 3bet range would be composed purely of hands being 3bet for value). with a raiser and two flat callers, i'd be inclined to make it like at least 75 cents, probably more.

this hand and the other one you posted seem to indicate you have a betsizing problem. this is probably a huge problem seeing as making money at microstakes play tailors itself towards betting for value, rather than "bluffing" or stealing pots. just a thought.

two more things:
- as played, bet more on the flop. any J is not folding. and you may also get looked up by TT/99. plus there are only nine believable combinations of hands in your opponents range which beat you right now, they are JJ (3), 4 (3), 66 (3). there are more combinations than these of AJ alone, not to mention KJ,JQ,TT,99. you are ahead of your opponent's calling range, so you are betting for value.

- there is another good reason to bet more on this flop, and that is to cut down on the odds for any flush draws your opponents could have. there are no blocker cards to any of the flush draw combinations which are going to be most common in your opponents ranges (Axss, Kxss and to a less extent Qxss and Jxss). so charge them to draw against you with the worst hand.

hope some of that helps.

Yeah were it not for so many callers PF I would have certainly 3bet larger, I guess I got afraid, which is terrible, backwards thinking. I usually do 3x the original bet when I 3bet PF, this hand was just weird cause there were so many callers and QQ isn't necessarily the top of the list for 3betting...I was never in a situation like this one before.

But for the flop: Isn't a 2/3 pot bet enough to deny odds for a flush draw?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madurskim

Yeah were it not for so many callers PF I would have certainly 3bet larger, I guess I got afraid, which is terrible, backwards thinking.....

But for the flop: Isn't a 2/3 pot bet enough to deny odds for a flush draw?

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yes, that is very backwards thinking. more callers requires larger raise/3bet sizes, to cut down their pot odds, prevent getting 15 callers etc.

as for the second part, yes it is technically enough so they can't have a positive expectation to call with a naked flush draw. but betting more makes their call even more -EV, and they're going to call with the same range. basically you want to allow them to make the biggest mistake you can. calling your 2/3 pot bet is mistake, calling a 5/6-full pot sized bet is a bigger mistake

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madurskim

Turn is an obvious fold

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wat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Donachello

wat

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it's not?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madurskim

it's not?

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Getting 1 zillion to 1 in a 3bet pot - not even close to a fold.

miffed is right, he's all in but its 1.24 in 4.44 pot,so you have to call 1.24 in a 5.68, you're getting like 6/7:1, that means you HAVE to call here.

your 3bet pre and 2/3 bet on flop being in BUTT, can easily be taken as an AK that missed.
anyway SB is comitted ( half his stack is in the pot) so he will shove that turn with JT+ that gives him an FD and of course a flush and sometimes times just Jx. stove it and you will see you have to call.

Already mentioned, but your 3b sizing preflop seriously sucks. Calculate what would be a pot sized raise. You get the ballpark.

http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-185247.html

Don't assume that everyone will donk bet the flop with top pair or a set. You 3b pre, so lots of people will assume that you will bet when checked to most of the time. Then they can check/raise or check/call.

Already said also, you can't fold the turn: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ll-173396.html

Please do the analysis and post it here.

Also not sure what happened to SB in the conversion: it is not in the player / stack size / position list.

Okay here goes:




equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 57.849% 57.51% 00.34% 2986 17.50 { QcQd }
Hand 1: 42.151% 41.81% 00.34% 2171 17.50 { JJ+, A9s+, A7s, KTs+, QJs, J9s+, J7s-J6s, AKo, AJo, KJo, QJo, J8o+ }



I have to call $1.24 to win $5.68, which is 21.8%...........way less than my equity which makes it +EV.

What do you guys think of the range I built for him?

Range:
1) you cannot give him ALL the XYs, only the XsYs (spades). For example in your range, KTs means KhTh or KsTs or KcTc or KdTd. When you click the KTs combo in Pokerstove, you then have to deselect the non spades combo in the suit box at the bottom right. Or just type KsTs to mean K spades and T spades.
2) do you really think he calls the 3b preflop with junk like J7s?
3) did you miss 66 and 44? If he does that with top pair or an overpair, does he never do it with these sets?
4) do you not think he would 4b preflop with AA and KK?
5) do you think he calls the flop with AKo?

Your pot odds are wrong. You have to use what the size of the pot would be after you call, so $6.92. Then $1.24/$6.92=17.9%. In classic odds notation, this is the same as 5.68:1.24.

Not a bad range but I'd exclude QQ+, AKo and add 66/44. Also, I believe your calculation is wrong and you need to add an extra $1.24 to the $5.68, giving yourself 18% equity making it even more of a call.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daviddem

Range:
1) you cannot give him ALL the XYs, only the XsYs (spades). For example in your range, J7s means Jh7h or Js7s or Jc7c or Jd7d. When you click the J7s combo in Pokerstove, you then have to deselect the non spades combo in the suit box at the bottom right. Or just type Js7s to mean J spades and 7 spades.
2) do you really think he calls the 3b preflop with junk like J7s?
3) did you miss 66 and 44? If he does that with top pair or an overpair, does he never do it with these sets?

Your pot odds are wrong. You have to use what the size of the pot would be after you call, so $6.92. Then $1.24/$6.92=17.9%. In classic odds notation, this is the same as 5.68:1.24.

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1. I thought Pokerstove took that into account but it doesn't? Completely being serious. I use other programs for this stuff but damn that sucks.
2. I do with his small sizing and SB's donk stack.
3. Agreed.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

1. I thought Pokerstove took that into account but it doesn't? Completely being serious. I use other programs for this stuff but damn that sucks.
2. I do with his small sizing and SB's donk stack.
3. Agreed.

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No pokerstove doesn't automatically know you mean "flush draw" when you click a suited combo with a 2-flush board. You have to manually deselect the non FD combos, or type the one FD combo manually. Which program is it that you use that does that automatically?

edit: er, maybe you meant something else here: Pokerstove DOES take BLOCKERS into account, if that is what you meant. I changed my example above to KT rather than J7. What I meant is why should he give all the KTs combo to opp? He should only really give KsTs, no? J7s is a different story because J7 has top pair.

Yeah this was my first time really using PokerStove and trying to build a specific range so thanks for all the input, I have to keep practicing I guess.


But as for the pot odds the pot was $4.44 and he bet $1.24 into it making the pot $5.68 - I think I did that right??

Quote:

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Originally Posted by madurskim

Yeah this was my first time really using PokerStove and trying to build a specific range so thanks for all the input, I have to keep practicing I guess.


But as for the pot odds the pot was $4.44 and he bet $1.24 into it making the pot $5.68 - I think I did that right??

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As kmind and daviddem already said, you have to add your call into the formula.

my bad, missed that. for some reason I was only thinking of the original bet. Thanks.