WUT? Table selection?

This is a skill I have never bothered to practice. But I've been trying to give it a go recently.

Sorting the lobby by VPIP or average pot is not very useful. I don't think the information is accurate at all. I don't know what kind of sample they work with, but a lot of tables that look soft are actually just filled with nitty regs.

Going the extra mile and bumhunting at FR games has been a futile exercise thus far. I went through my database, identified the biggest whales, and looked for them at the tables. Any time I found one or more, the waiting list at their tables was quite large.

For that matter, most tables in general have waiting lists. How is it even really possible to select a table? Once you sit down, the composition of the table will be completely different. And probably not for the better.

I'm beginning to think that "table selection" is a misleading term. Maybe what I should be doing is table deselection. Join a bunch of tables at random, and if a game is bad, leave. Rinse, repeat.

Alternatively, I suppose you could start up empty tables. I hear that fish are more likely to join small tables than regs.

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Originally Posted by grnydrowave2

I'm beginning to think that "table selection" is a misleading term. Maybe what I should be doing is table deselection. Join a bunch of tables at random, and if a game is bad, leave. Rinse, repeat.

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This. I don't really like waiting lists either because it's usually all regs by the time you get there. I usually look for tables with fishy stacks a little under a full buy-in and then follow the above procedure.

Yeah same here, I'll leave a table if it gets too infested with regs or short stacks.

Starting tables > join short-handed tables > wait listing

Also, you don't need to bumhunt at the micros. There's plenty of passive fish to go around and most regs are just terrible.

i just sit at any table with a decent vpip stay for ~ 50 hands and if theres no fish i leave...pretty simple exercise...i just go through all my tables once every 30 mins or so and see which tables i need to sit out next BB.

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Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

i just sit at any table with a decent vpip stay for ~ 50 hands and if theres no fish i leave...pretty simple exercise...i just go through all my tables once every 30 mins or so and see which tables i need to sit out next BB.

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I do a mixture of this and what what grny says doesn't work in his OP about finding high VPIP tables in the lobby. It seems to work ok for me and when I notice that there's a lot of regs then I INSTANTLY uncheck the auto post blinds. Another HUGE help is color coding players everytime you play a session. Then, in the lobby you'll have a ton of players marked.

I also bought tablescanner on HEM awhile ago and it's caused nothing but problems for me so far but I never gave it a great chance tbh.

I sort by players per flop then look at hands per hour and avg pot. I usually don't wait for any table with >3 waiters. I color code too so I'll sometimes wait with more than 2 greens (CS's) or oranges (vpip>35).

I will stay at table until:
Table VPIP < 15 over 30 or so hands unless 2 or more fish at table
I lose two big hands to same villian or two BIs at one table (I'll be trying much to win my money back otherwise)
Only one fish left at table and the rest regs
50 hands and I don't feel I have an edge

I'll deviate from these some but for the most part this is what I do.

I normally try to avoid tables with a wait > 2, unless I see at least two that I've color coded green (major donator).

I'm looking for about 30% of players seeing the flop, hands per hr > 70 and avg pot size > 0.50 (@ 5NL)

I normally leave if I lose 1.5 BI, the fish leave or my stack > 250bb. I'm thinking of adding a few leaving requirements but I'm also wondering if I should continue to stay at a table when I'm that deep.

At Full Tilt, the wait lists are a little goofy now that they have the "wait for a table like this" feature (which I never use). Because there could be players waiting for tables similar to the one you are looking at, the numbers tend to be higher than normal. I'll add myself to the wait list if there are 4 or less people already on the list, sometimes 5 if the table looks really good (high VPIP and two or more noted fish). You'd be surprised how quickly you move up to 1 or 2 on the wait list.

Keep in mind that you don't have to take a seat when one opens up. If you get a seat at a table but you see a bunch of regs and one known fish on your left, just stand up before posting a blind.

coming from someone whose new year's resolution was to bumhunt (going slovenly btw), i can say that three things that have worked best for me are as follows:

1) starting sessions slowly. i do think that the VAST majority of the name of the game is table deselection as you say, so whenever i used to add myself to 20 wait lists, i would be ok for the first 10 mins of the session but once a million wait list screens started popping up, i would be too busy buying into tables, playing hands i was dealt, etc to deselect tables. if you just add yourself to just a few wait lists and check out some of the games that are short-handed and take an orbit to see the table feels, then you should be able to always have a good grasp of what tables are good and why (know why it's good is nice because then when the fish leaves or when the people on your left get more aggro, etc, then it won't take long for you to deselect it)

2) knowing what you're looking for. this was a problem for me when i was playing 200nl (which is a COMPLETELY reg-infested stake), and i had an ego. any table with people to my left who didn't 3b much OR any table where i had a fish SOMEWHERE at the table (even a not that huge of a fish to my left, with only like 50bb's lol) OR any table where there was a regfish close-ish to my right OR any table where i thought a certain reg was bad and i could exploit him.... needless to say, i didn't end up on that great of tables where the money was really flowing that great to me. now that i'm exclusively bumhunting, i'm only sitting somewhere to the left of massive (like 50+ vpip type) fish at 250bb tables. if that means i only have two tables up at a time, then so be it. i'll just pay extra close attention to exploiting those table dynamics, while trying to find good tables elsewhere.

3. having a good "feel" for tables. this is prolly gonna be tough for most micro players to have, but most of this is recognizing how wide of a range you can play profitably from how far from the button. the more 8/7's wtih 2% 3b's sitting to your left and the more 90/5's sitting to your right and the deeper you are on the people to your right, the more you can limp behind the fishes' inevitable limps, knowing you're never getting iso'ed and the more you can iso yourself without ever getting 3b and the more you can treat the HJ like the BU because everyone who has position on you are seat warmers who aren't gonna exploit that position, etc.

how "good" a table is can't always be figured out by hard and fast rules like the number of "fish" that are at the table (since that term is relative anyway). sometimes i have a 30/15 type three seats to my right at FR, and i have to look deeper into how big of pots i can win against this player with how big of hands; how much he's limping--how much he's limp/folding, limp/call and folding flops, limp/calling and calling way too light post-- i have to get a feel for how much the people to my left are letting me getting away with playing a lot of pots with this player, etc. this takes looking at a lot of the non-standard stats and it takes an orbit or two to really get a sense of how much of an advantage you REALLY have at the table.

Seat selection. Kthx

color coding especially helps on full tilt when you hit the waitlist tables like this button. I avoid tables with mass amounts of "green flags"

well, the thing is, you don't need to avoid tables with a lot of regs. for the most part, regs are gonna be 0ev, esp at the micros where no one is aggressive. if you can find a seat at a 6m table to the direct left of a 90/5 with 250bb effect stacks against him, but everyone else is 20/16's with 3% 3b's is bought in for 100bb's, then that's pretty much the best seat you're ever gonna find ever

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Originally Posted by surviva316

well, the thing is, you don't need to avoid tables with a lot of regs. for the most part, regs are gonna be 0ev, esp at the micros where no one is aggressive. if you can find a seat at a 6m table to the direct left of a 90/5 with 250bb effect stacks against him, but everyone else is 20/16's with 3% 3b's is bought in for 100bb's, then that's pretty much the best seat you're ever gonna find ever

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That's a good seat, especially if he's really aggressive. However, why would you sit down with 1 +EV guy and a bunch of 0EV or slightly +EV guys when there's enough tables to find one with multiple, obvious +EV opponents? This may work for you, but for me I've found that finding the best possible tables gives me the most +EV.

I think at the micros the main thing is to constantly evaluate each table and ask your self a series of questions. The following is a sample of the questions I ask myself after I have been seated at a table for 25 or so hands:

1. Are there fish at this table? (remember if you can't identify the fish at the table it is very possible you are it!)
2. Do I have an advantage over others at this table?
3. Can I exploit others at this table?
4. What is my image at this table?
5. Am I comfortable at this table with this stack size? (this if I am getting deep)

I'm sure there are others that would/could be pertinent so ask them. If you are getting enough yes answers move on. I usually just open a new table or sit down w/1 or 2 others and evaluate the table as it fills up. I won't open another table until the others are full then I repeat.

I agree that "table deselection" is a big part of finding good tables.

However, I think that a higher % of tables that I open are good tables (that I end up staying on) than someone who is opening tables at random. That sentence sounds kind of vague and confusing, but what I mean is that there are things you can look for to increase your chances of sitting at a good table.

For example, would you rather sit at a table with 5 other players with 100-110 bb or a table with 2 65bb stacks to your right and a player you have tagged as a "nit" to your left? Would you rather sit at a table with an average VPIP of 40 or and average VPIP of 20?

imo, the less you have to open then close a table the more you increase hourly profits.

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Originally Posted by kmind

That's a good seat, especially if he's really aggressive. However, why would you sit down with 1 +EV guy and a bunch of 0EV or slightly +EV guys when there's enough tables to find one with multiple, obvious +EV opponents? This may work for you, but for me I've found that finding the best possible tables gives me the most +EV.

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i have no ev maths to support my preference or anything, but playing with a good seat on just one massive fish and a bunch of weaktight players seems a lot easier than playing at a table with nothing but meh fish. the latter just seems to get you in a shittonne of multiway pots with you acting last postflop far less, so you at least have to flop well. it's kinda like at a fishy table, seeing a lot of flops isn't even that big of a leak, so the fish aren't really making AS big of mistakes as you might think by playing 40/15, so they bleed slower (especially if they're flopping well). obviously this gets to be more and moreso the case the deeper and deeper you get.

i mean it's kind of a "which will make the bag leak faster? poking a lot of little holes in it, or putting a big puncture in it?" type deal. just i figured i'd point out that just avoiding regs isn't the most effective method imo

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Originally Posted by kfaess

I agree that "table deselection" is a big part of finding good tables.

However, I think that a higher % of tables that I open are good tables (that I end up staying on) than someone who is opening tables at random. That sentence sounds kind of vague and confusing, but what I mean is that there are things you can look for to increase your chances of sitting at a good table.

For example, would you rather sit at a table with 5 other players with 100-110 bb or a table with 2 65bb stacks to your right and a player you have tagged as a "nit" to your left? Would you rather sit at a table with an average VPIP of 40 or and average VPIP of 20?

imo, the less you have to open then close a table the more you increase hourly profits.

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You were on a pretty bad table I saw in my like 2 orbits.

surviva - you're right. Good points as long (as you said) the regs won't exploit you.

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Originally Posted by kmind

You were on a pretty bad table I saw in my like 2 orbits.

surviva - you're right. Good points as long (as you said) the regs won't exploit you.

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haha I thought I recognized that sn, couldn't quite place who it was.

Yea that guy to my left was pretty annoying but the reason I wanted to stay at the table is the guy 2 seats to my right was as bad or worse.

Now that I think about it, its not too hard to find really good tables (significantly better than that one), so even though that table was decent I prob should have just left to find a different one.

At what point does a table become good enough to stay seated?

Stop f'n 3betting me kfaess wtf :(. But seriously, I was at another table of yours and didn't like it much. There was a pretty big fish there though (but he was directly to your left).

I think a table is good enough to stay when there's either various fish with say >50bb stacks or you have position on a main fish. I'm sure there's more things to look at but at 25NL it's really easy to table select and I see a lot of regs stay at really bad tables. I think a lot of people have too big of egos. Let it go.