options, options...

Villain (a scandi, fairly aggro reg) and I have been dueling, including a bit of 4-bet spewiness. most of the aggression has been preflop and nothing fancy has taken place in a few orbits. my reads are that he doesn't stab in places you would expect without the initiative but I don't have a super clear idea of his c-bet vs check-back range on this flop.

i ll preface this with "i agree 100% with you if you wanna say fold preflop, fold flop"

$200.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Tuesday, January 25, 01:00:15 ET 2011
Table Leicester Square (Real Money)
Seat 2 is the button
Seat 1: jaztastic ( $166.20 USD )
Seat 2: Jestii ( $418.10 USD )
Seat 3: khalidzahoor16 ( $165.80 USD )
Seat 4: Genitruc ( $208.20 USD )
Seat 5: Bazultra ( $126.00 USD )
Seat 6: gobuelle ( $203.00 USD )
khalidzahoor16 posts small blind [$1.00 USD].
Genitruc posts big blind [$2.00 USD].
Dealt to Genitruc :kc: :5c:
Bazultra folds
gobuelle folds
jaztastic folds
Jestii raises [$6.00 USD]
khalidzahoor16 folds
Genitruc calls [$4.00 USD]
** Dealing Flop ** :5h: :jd: :9d:
Genitruc checks
Jestii bets [$9.75 USD]
Genitruc raises [$32.00 USD]
Jestii calls [$22.25 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** :ks:
Genitruc

Seems like a pretty easy bet. Especially since hands like JT, QJ and KQ aren't going anywhere.

I'd bet about 49ish and take it from there.

That's why it kinda sucks to c/r this particular hand here, much rather have 56.

As played I guess bet/fold 45 ish

If everyone says bet, then I guess I've got to say check.

let s just say my decision puts me in the minority lol

I would bet 58-60 and re-eval. I don't want to b/f if we bet any amount lower where he might shove KQ or AA or something.

If I bet in the 40's I will b/c.

What's with the nits? Its 100bbs and we have two pair on a drawy board, vs a fairly aggro scandii. geez.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

I would bet 58-60 and re-eval. I don't want to b/f if we bet any amount lower where he might shove KQ or AA or something.

If I bet in the 40's I will b/c.

What's with the nits? Its 100bbs and we have two pair on a drawy board, vs a fairly aggro scandii. geez.

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What hand is he now shoving with that wouldn't do it on flop? I'd argue mostly KJ,QT, and K9 (1/2 the combos). I'm thinking QJ,JT, and KQ (1/2 the combos) will just call once again, so there is value in a <50$ bet. He can also have some lower FD like 56dd that peeled once, so we're protecting against that and not really worried about him shoving 6 hi on us on a bad turn for him. The rest of FDs usually have overs or combo so he'd shove flop with.

you guys are villain

i overbet shoved turn for 170 into 76

what do you call with and why?

KQ or better prob, meaning he's calling like 3 combos you beat and folding the rest. The odds just suck to make a marginal hero call with QJ JT. I'm not scandi so hard to answer the question, ask Isildur11.

HAHA FOLP PREFLOP!! naa, those hands are ment to play with position like you did. Plus its really really funny to tilt players with cards like those. I mean, if you get the chance of shovin with two pair and the guy had like AJ hes gonna be sooo tilted and then youre gonna play just tight. I call that an invesment.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Alexos

KQ or better prob, meaning he's calling like 3 combos you beat and folding the rest. The odds just suck to make a marginal hero call with QJ JT.

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What's the difference between KQ and JT vs someone competent like OP?

Jamming is def FPS, but some suckers fall for this move and call with one pair, especially scandis (not this one).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by pocketfours

What's the difference between KQ and JT vs someone competent like OP?

Jamming is def FPS, but some suckers fall for this move and call with one pair, especially scandis (not this one).

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You're right there isn't much of a difference, it's just that I'd prob expect him to call with TP more often. Equity-wise though, both kinda suck.

fwiw i would probably only do this vs mega-fish (who will obv never fold a FD or a TP-type hand) and ppl i view as decent (which is the case vs this villain).

vs a decent player, i want to discourage him from floating my CR light in pos and i also want to discourage him from c-betting a wide range. knowing that i m capable of CR light as well as overbet-shoving turns light seems like it might accomplish both of these things.

as i mentioned in OP, this hand would have been played better had i just folded pre flop and either donked or check-folded the flop. glad i posted this because of a few thoughts i wouldn t have had... mainly the value of having a flop CR + turn overbet jam range. clearly unnecessary for a winning strategy but definitely something most people aren't used to dealing with.

another consideration is that i think this guy could put me in many many terribly spots on lots of rivers if i were to bet say 45 and get flatted here. maybe i m projecting too much sickness onto a random decent nl200 scandi reg but it seems like i d just be asking to get outplayed by like JQ turning itself into a bluff.

final rant-consideration : pre-river overbets seem like they are completely ignored in NL in general these days... i suppose they re considered unsophisticated and unnecessary, which probably means a lot of money could be made using them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

final rant-consideration : pre-river overbets seem like they are completely ignored in NL in general these days... i suppose they re considered unsophisticated and unnecessary, which probably means a lot of money could be made using them.

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Yah I agree they aren't used much. For whatever its worth, I overbet all the time. For the most part I think they get folds. I've mostly been using it in spots where PFR c/c flop and then cks turn and I overbet turn. It definitely puts a lot of pressure on them, and the implied threat of a river shove seems stronger.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

another consideration is that i think this guy could put me in many many terribly spots on lots of rivers if i were to bet say 45 and get flatted here.

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Just b/c turn, then jam blank and c/f diamond rivers. Might not be the best line here but it should at least be better than this overbet. By jamming the turn you lose value from all the hands that would call turn and fold river, assuming his stack off range doesn't change.

You will also save over half of your stack on 11/44 diamond rivers if villain slowplays QT or any other hand that beats you on the turn, which he is very likely to do here.

id just bet and bet again with 100bbs ...

Why the hell are you attempting to bluff a scandi at all

well i don t expect him to fold better ever so not much of a bluff

im indifferent to the flop c/r, i would do it sometimes vs some opponents, meh. c/c is definitely standard.

the overbet jam on the turn seems really weird to me, i feel like u always get called by any hand better than yours but not always with any hand worse.

ya i posted cuz it felt weird at the time. not sure i hate it as much as i thought i would though

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce123

id just bet and bet again with 100bbs ...

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totally agree, can't imagine b/f on this turn either. if that were the case we'd have to severely re-evaluate what we did earlier in the hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Genitruc

ya i posted cuz it felt weird at the time. not sure i hate it as much as i thought i would though

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usually any hand that you can comfortably bet/shove for value you arent going to feel too squeamish about overbetshoving for value a street earlier on a board with a buncha draws on it

thx for all the replies, glad i posted this

if we restart the hand and I'm holding A7dd what do we think about the turn shove? how about 67dd (seems like there s a pretty big difference)?