sticky situation 3 bet pot

The more i look at this hand the more i feel like i should have gone all in.

villain 3 bets me in Mp , he has a 3 bet range of 6% . U guys reckon i have enuf equity ? i mean 6% looks wide enuf pre but however it's a preety small sample size ( 200 hands) . so he might just have had genuine big hands . whatever

he was playing like 15/10 standard TAG-ish and not much more i can say. my question is whether i have enuf equity on this board or not , i don't think he would 3 bet jacks so that kind of leaves AKs , maybe AK o , AA and KK in his range. oh well it shows i have 40% equity vs this range . his shove on the turn might be more weighted too AKs or Ako , hence why i questioned my fold

what do u guys reckon

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP1) ($5)
MP2 ($5.71)
MP3 ($5.50)
CO ($5.24)
Button ($31.17)
SB ($12.52)
BB ($5)
UTG ($2.02)
UTG+1 ($4.96)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
2 folds, Hero bets $0.20, MP2 raises $0.60, 5 folds, Hero calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.27) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $1, Hero calls $1

Turn: ($3.27) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP2 bets $4.11 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $3.27

A good rule of thumb is to not call 3 bets OOP, so 4b, or fold if he only 3b with AK, KK+. Mind that against that range on this flop, you are still not a favorite (47% equity).

Be careful with wide 3b ranges, it may just indicate that he defends his blinds a lot, but he does not necessarily 3b wider than normal in other positions.

On the turn if you think that he still has most of his AK's in his range (he moslty bets the flop AND shoves the turn with AK in this spot), then it's a call as your equity is now as much as 51% and there is a ton of dead money in the pot. If he never does it with AK, it is obviously a fold.

4 betting sucks ass here, enjoy getting it in with 30-40% equity. I'd much rather flat for this price given his range is super fucking strong because he's a nit 3 betting your utg open. Taking a 6% 3 bet stat as meaning he has a light 3 betting range in this spot is very illogical. As the dude above me says, his light 3 bets (if there are any) are way more likely to come from LP situations.

I don't mind a peel here, set mining odds are alrightish and our hand is very easy to play post flop, even oop. In a nutshell we're completely obliterated on any Axx or Kxx board and can peel one on low board and fold turns lol happily here. I doubt this guy is bluffing turns with AK anywhere near often enough to ever consider calling. Think it's played fine and preflop: Call > > Fold > > > > > > 4-bet

Cool, I was interested to find spots where it is not totally wrong to call a 3b OOP, and looks like there is one.

As a minor thread hijack, if you think of some other typical situations where it's OK to do that, pls ship. I'll ask the question in irc also.

There are plenty. What positional disadvantage does in these spots is that it decreases the EV of your play because you're likely to loose more and win less postflop with the worst and best hand respectively or make loads more mistakes. It doesn't however, automatically render any situation -EV, because there could be a bunch of factors that make it +EV so that even with the positional disadvantage it's still +EV, just not as +EV as it would be in position.

Generally due to the disadvantages of playing oop you'll need to compensate for this in order to call, usually by having a large equity edge over your opponents range, or more rarely a skill edge and information as to how you can exploit him frequently postflop (perhaps he stacks off way too light and is a spazz monkey, or always c bets the flop then gives up etc ect) Other factors could be implied odds (being deep enough to flat even oop) or whatever.

To give you an example where your large equity edge makes up enough for positional disadvantage consider the following.

We open AQs to 3bb SB vs BB 123bb deep. Villain is a 23/18 who 3 bets 10% in the BB and is aware you open wide in this position and is therefore light often. He 3 bets to 9bb. Here being oop sucks but so much of his range is air (often dominated air) that our large equity edge vs his range will make calling okay, provided we can play fairly well postflop.

However, consider a spot where our equity edge is smaller. Say we have AJo and open to 3bb MP vs CO and get 3 bet to 9bb. Villain 3 bets 9% from this sort of position so we know we are a slight favourite vs his likely range.

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 51.018% 49.90% 01.12% 1076597544 24110274.00 { AJo }
Hand 1: 48.982% 47.86% 01.12% 1032684948 24110274.00 { TT+, AKs, A7s-A2s, K6s-K2s, J8s, T8s-T7s, 97s+, 86s+, 76s, AKo }

Here's an estimate at a range if he's polarised and 3 betting 9% here. We are doing alright and are certainly slightly ahead. At first glance we may have the equity to flat and IP this could be okay (although not ideal) but here our lack of initiative and our positional disadvantage is going to make it a losing play.

So yeah, while in the AQ example we have a big enough equity edge and are dominating enough of our opponents range etc etc. In the AJ example, althouigh slightly ahead and getting the pot odds to justify a call, if you looked at this spot like a robot and didn't consider other factors, when you weigh in our lack of position/initiative/reads to exploit, it'll be bad to flat.

Calling 3-bets oop sucks, so make sure you've got a damn good reason to do it.

nh imo

I def wouldn't be calling the turn bet. Name a hand that he does that with after 3bing that isn't already ahead of us or have a ton of equity.

TT, JJ have sets.

AA, KK ahead of us and we have two outs.

AK (which he might not even play this way) still has two overcards and a gutshot vs our hand.

Time to fold and not feel too bad about it. Also, like others have mentioned he's probably not 3b bluffing you as often as you think

thnx carrotman good stuff

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheLongGrind

thnx carrotman good stuff

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+1

OK but then back to OP's hand, if he puts opp on KK+, AK for a 3b range, we have just 40% equity there, so I don't see the equity advantage at all? Even on non A/K flops we are till behind this range.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daviddem

OK but then back to OP's hand, if he puts opp on KK+, AK for a 3b range, we have just 40% equity there, so I don't see the equity advantage at all? Even on non A/K flops we are till behind this range.

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OP says that is villain´s range after the turn bet, not preflop.

PS: Villain doesn´t have a gutshot

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daviddem

OK but then back to OP's hand, if he puts opp on KK+, AK for a 3b range, we have just 40% equity there, so I don't see the equity advantage at all? Even on non A/K flops we are till behind this range.

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We're 100deep here and only have to call another 4bbs to see a flop. Set odds here are actually not bad, even oop due to how often villain stacks off postflop. We can call due to this and our hand being very easy to play (there's also the chance he 3 bets JJ/TT or a bluff SOMETIMES although rarely)and villains range being easy to play against, but yeah you're right in that it's not going to be hugely +EV and a fold would be a close 2nd choice. My main point when I first replied to you was that 4-betting was considerably worse than calling in this spot.

hi guys just to add a lil something to the discussion , on the turn would it be disastrous getting it in with like 40% equity , looking at the monies already int he pot i think that it would make up for a negative raw equity spot. so basically when i put him on JJ+ postflop. now in this particular case it's too liberal probably as he is a monsternit and probably smallballing with jacks. but just in a vacuum , say u got 40% equity on the turn and ur playing for stacks. in this example with the money already in the pot i would like to think w/ 40% equity it's a call. thnx

If we had 40% equity on the turn it'd be a call, yeah.

We need 35.7% equity to call the turn.

Do: amount to call/(amount to call + total pot ) x 100

This gives you how much equity you need to break even on a call.