25NL, QQ in the small blind

UTG is 12/12 over 40 hands, BB is a complete unknown.

Flatting pre OK since utg is tight? Or 3-bet?
What do you like ott? b/f, c/c, c/f?
River?

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

BB ($41.05)
UTG ($34.67)
MP ($25.45)
CO ($37.69)
Button ($32.14)
Hero (SB) ($34.26)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif
UTG bets $0.75, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.65, BB calls $0.50

Flop: ($2.25) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $1.50, BB calls $1.50, UTG calls $1.50

Turn: ($6.75) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (3 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $4.20, 1 fold, Hero calls $4.20

River: ($15.15) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, BB bets $12.30, Hero ?

This is how I play it, doesn't mean it's right:

3b pre vs a 99+,AQ+ range.
OK to donk flop I'd say, for value vs flush draws, TT-JJ, 9Xs or some tenacious AK.
Initially I was gonna say b/f turn, but then I stoved and you have only 34% equity vs JJ-99,44-33,AcKc,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,A9s,Ac8c,KcQc,KcJc,KcTc,K9s ,QcJc,Q9s,J9s,T9s,98s so that would be a c/f unless you think he has a fair amount of bluffs in his range.
River: I think he does not bet the turn with his 9Xs unless they are clubs obv. so getting into the river I'd have him on JJ-99,44-33,AcKc,AcQc,AcJc,AcTc,Ac9c,Ac8c,KcQc,KcJc,KcTc,Kc 9c,QcJc,Qc9c,Jc9c,Tc9c,9c8c, against which you have 60% equity (50% exactly if JJ is not there). Time for a thin value b/f? Bet $5?

Interesting hand, I wanna see what carroters, m2m, yaawn and daven have to say about it.

I'd also 3bet this preflop, big pairs dont play great multiway so I prefer to get the pot HU.

As played I like your lead on this flop, as daviddem says theres plenty of hands you get value from. That said make sure you have a plan if you are raised.

On the turn, I'm inclinded to discount sets somewhat since we didn't get raised on the flop. Still, we've bet and got called in two spots and the flush just got there, as well as TT, 9Ts which also has us crushed. If we're behind we're either dead or drawing to two outs.

I think we have to check, and given that we have no reads on the bb here, his range crushes us and he has bet into 2 players, we should fold.

The river is the best card in the deck for us. Now only the flush beats us. Still, I think we should check/call here. This is because he occasionly gets here with a bluff, and most of the hands we're beating that would call a value bet will bet themselves (sets almost always and 9T perhaps 50%). This is because if he can hand read at all he knows you dont have the flush and only rarely have a set.

3bet preflop, as played, A thin B/F would be the way to go for me.

By default i think id 3bet QQ from the Sb against any open. Only if the BB was a squeeze monkey or UTG super tight would i call.

I didnt run the numbers but surely 3betting QQ still shows positive expectation against a 12% opening range (i think)

Of course a 3bet range from the SB vs an UTG range is normally pretty tight so a 4bet is a pretty tight range from villain meaning 3betting may not strictly be the best play.

I wouldnt donk this for the only reason i dont see a good plan to a raise - unless the intention is to lead and shove over/fold to a flop raise? if villain doesnt raise then the hand seems straight forward enough on most streets/cards

Id want to c/c bet bet opening up the range of hands i can do this with while it it puts villain in a more difficult spot on later streets if we play the hand as played but the worst i would likely do this with is JJ and maybe even only TT as im 3betting most other big pairs preflop

OK, I zapped in my post and I didn't realize it is 6max. This makes UTG's range def. wider than 99+,AQ+. Say 10% of hands, which is really tight for 6max: 88+,ATs+,KTs+,QJs,AJo+

I still think 3b is a good play, esp. if you have a decently high 3b% like 7+ and some history with opp.

c/c + lead turn is an interesting line. Would you lead any turn?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by couriermike

UTG is 12/12 over 40 hands, BB is a complete unknown.

Flatting pre OK since utg is tight? Or 3-bet?

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When I read this thread this morning , I believed a 3 bet was correct.

after seeing Spoons http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ml#post2006532

I popped into the ice chat and came out with a different view.

Flat calling is the way to go with QQ against this type of Tag and 3betting with KK+ or even Just AA .

So there. Ice chat it.

Yah defo prefer a flat preflop here, don't think it's very close.

On the turn I hate c/c, I'd rather b/f than c/c here, I'd probably just b/f the turn pretty small like less than 1/2 pot and b/f river smallish if called on blanks, can explain this further if anyone wants me to when I have more time. It's basically a spot where calling ranges are far weaker than betting ranges and there's value from PPs Tx pair + draw etc, and we're fucked vs betting ranges very often. Fold the turn as played.

Stove a range of flushes and sets for the river giving him mainly just Scs and a few good suited boradways + gappers in clubs, get your equity ez game. He has air or a bluff very near to 0% of the time on the river.

Yeah I wussed out on the flush turn after getting called twice. Def should have b/f'd. c/c'ing is the worst because no one's bluffing here and i'm just getting valuetowned, never valuetowning anyone. that makes alot of sense about calling ranges vs betting ranges.

idk why everyone wants to 3b this pre so bad...?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroters

Yah defo prefer a flat preflop here, don't think it's very close.

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Educate me on why this better - genuinly.

is it a simple case of we fold out worse and he only calls with mostly better? Or am i missing something

I am still digesting it. My brain is getting hurt with this :3s:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Miffed22001

Educate me on why this (= calling pre) is better - genuinly.

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how to make most money out of this hand is key here

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

how to make most money out of this hand is key here

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:confused: How does flatting pre help? We're potentially letting BB in cheaply (he's getting 4.5:1 on a call) so we will be OOP multiway with no idea where we're at.
Whats our plan the 31% of times an A or K hits the flop? c/c??c/f?
Flatting pre just seems to just make our life difficult.

I'd 3bet to negate positional advantage, give us the lead and get the pot HU.

Would you flat OTB? I can see more argument for that because at least we have position with a disguised hand. Still hate it unless villain is much tighter than this tho. Please explain for those of us who weren't on irc.

I do see your point about bet folding the turn, that makes alot of sense, probably about 1/3 psb would be good I guess.
River is trickier tho because he might raise worse hands so is river b/c?

Why b/f turn, and what's the plan for the river when we are called?

I was going to say b/f also at first glance, but then I looked at opps' possible ranges for calling the flop (see my first post above), and it seems to me that we are well behind already when the Tc shows up on the turn. If we check, looks to me a bluff is unlikely, and I can't even see any of them floating the flop to start with. Then if one of them bets when we check we are even more behind.

Please expand on why b/f is good? Is c/f that bad here?

iunno why we can't just c/f this disaster of a turn mw

b/f is also horrible cause we probably don't have 50% equity versus anyones continuing range and it's fucking multiway, dunno why anyone would suggest this.

Thanks Yaawwn. Now for the river I was saying in my earlier post to thin value bet river based on opps' range I assigned above (we have 50 to 60% equity vs that range), but after talking with Spoon in irc yesterday, looks like I should discount sets quite a bit because sets would have raised the flop a non negligible % of the time.

So, as played on the flop and turn, is river a c/f as well b/c opp is unlikely to bet sets when checked to?

The decision to 3 bet QQ depends on your own 3 bet range. If its narrow then you should tend to flat QQ vs utg. If we have a wider 3 betting range which includes some bluffs then you should tend to 3 bet QQ vs utg for value.

Look-
Lets say villain opens utg and is 3 bet by mike with QQ. Villain will play his range based on what he thinks about mikes range.

If mike is running 7/7 with a 0% 3bet, then our villain will probably only continue with a range of like KK+. This is why we tend to flat a hand like QQ if our range is narrow because we have a hard time getting worse hands to come along if we 3bet!

Now what if mike is running 60/50 with a 22% 3 bet? Villain's continue range is now A LOT wider and he may even start 4 betting or shipping hands like 88+ and AJ in response to our super wide range.

what happens to villains continue range if mike is running 29/24 with a 9% 3 bet?

Do you guys see where I am going with this?

Yeah if I did b/f turn it would be a shitty little size to ensure all lots of PP combos continue, Tx combos. Don't think our equity would be too bad if we make it small enough that they're continuing with almost they're whole flop calling ranges. There's obviously nothing wronmg with c/f the turn.

i would bet the turn for half pot and bet the river for like 1/3 pot . if u meet any resistance . fold. vakluetown for his worse handse and damage control if he flushed up on you. can't really see him turning anything else but a flush into a bluff so i wouldn't feel 'dirty' folding if he reraises turn/river. i really hate calling in these spots. it feels like ur hand is nothing but a bluffcatcher when u do that. your hand has way too much value on turn to just chechk call and face an ugly river decision. by the river his range looks like . flush or exactly nothing. also bear in mind that if he happens to have like a set of nines and you lead turn it is hard for him to Reraise u unless he feels positive he is doing it for value which looks hard to tell since u just flatted preflop and on the flop. so a bet/fold line looks best to me. basically what carroters said but i don't really like betting the turn and then chechking the river , leaving worse hands or even air open to bluff you since he is in position , hence why i would bet turn , fold when raised. if he flats blockbet the river.. kind of depends if you are 100% positive that he never bluffs on these boards then just bet turn C/F river.