set with no info

Here's one which baffled me. I literally just sat down first hand have nothing on villain!

$0.05/$0.10 No Limit Holdem
3 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
BTN Dm00012 ($10)
SB cotton1944 ($10)
BB Hero ($10)

Pre-Flop: ($0.15, 3 players) Hero is BB :2h: :2d:
Dm00012 folds, cotton1944 calls $0.05, Hero raises to $0.30, cotton1944 calls $0.20

Flop: :3s: :ks: :2c: ($0.60, 2 players)
cotton1944 checks, Hero bets $0.45, cotton1944 calls $0.45

Turn: :9c: ($1.50, 2 players)
cotton1944 checks, Hero bets $1.20, cotton1944 calls $1.20

River: :4c: ($3.90, 2 players)
cotton1944 bets $2.20, $2.2 to Hero ($8.05)?

I´d bet closer to pot each street. As played prob call river. Don´t think there are enough KX and odd 2pr to make up for bd clubs A5 and a funky 99. I´m also very likely checking pre.

Checking pre with only 3 players? I am truly asking as I am pretty new at starting tables but it seems like any pair in a heads up or three way is pretty strong?

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Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Checking pre with only 3 players? I am truly asking as I am pretty new at starting tables but it seems like any pair in a heads up or three way is pretty strong?

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Meh. I honestly look for any reason to fold 22-44 and if I can get a free look at a flop, then I usually take it. Although slightly positive, they're just not big winners in my database so if I do play them, it's usually in a limped pot or purely for set value vs Tighty McReg who doesn't mind going all-in when I play my set face up. :D

As for the hand, it's a tough one. Calling seems good, but when villain XC, XC, donks river we can't feel great about our hand anymore. He could have back-doored a flush, caught his kicker with K4, or feels good about his Kx enough to bet. I think this could go either way honestly and I wouldn't really feel bad about either decision.

I also think don't raise when a flop comes your prolly dealing with 3 over cards so your bluffing if you C bet or getting worse hands to fold.
I think you can go pot size on the turn but I like the flop, unless you would pot size C bet with air you shouldn't be doing it with the top of your range IMO. The river is a call.

shove imo

dunno what you guys who want to just call are afraid of, I would raise river for sure. if you don't think he will call a jam with Kx or worse raise smaller.

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shove imo

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dunno what you guys who want to just call are afraid of, I would raise river for sure. if you don't think he will call a jam with Kx or worse raise smaller.

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idk do you not think he has a fair amount of KcXc in his river betting range (or straights if he called all the way with a gutshot +over like A5, or maybe even oversets)? If he had just a pair of K here would he not have raised it or donked it earlier? Why now on this river? Worse I can see him doing that with is two pairs, hitting the second one on the river, but there are more combos of KcXc/A5 than K4's out there.

If this is flawed reasoning, please explain why.

Preflop is such an easy raise here in positon.

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These hands are losers in my database so i don't play them

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That's because when you do play them you play them badly by failing to grab loads of initiative in great spots like this preflop to c-bet wuth great success and compliment your positon and the fact that your opponent is playing a weak range badly oop without initiative! It's a cocktail for making money. I'd defo raise river far far more marginal/weaker hands in his range than weaker ones.

Well apparently all the better players out there want to raise the river. I am interested in understanding this better beause I am still not sure there are so many weaker hands that call flop, call turn, donk river and would call a raise.

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Originally Posted by Carroters

Preflop is such an easy raise here in positon.

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This for sure, didn´t see it was the SB limping.

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Originally Posted by HarleyGuy13

Checking pre with only 3 players? I am truly asking as I am pretty new at starting tables but it seems like any pair in a heads up or three way is pretty strong?

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How many players have folded before it reaches the SB is irrelevant for our preflop decision here. What matters is that it is folded to the SB who completes. If there were 13 folds before it got to him it'd still be an open.

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Originally Posted by Carroters

How many players have folded before it reaches the SB is irrelevant for our preflop decision here. What matters is that it is folded to the SB who completes. If there were 13 folds before it got to him it'd still be an open.

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I agree totally my main point is I'm betting any pair when I'm playing hu or 3way amirite?

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I'm betting any pair when I'm playing hu or 3way

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It's probably one of the many massive leaks I've got but that's the way look at it. HU or 3way any pp is getting bet pf.

I probably check pre because 22 plays like shit and raise the river because we crush his river calling range like the angry fist of Allah on the infidels.

We're going to get so many folds either pre or on the flop vs this guy that I can't see how building a pot to take down with any hand at all can be bad here unless he's particularly aggro, plays back at us post flop/limp raises the sb etc etc. Without reads like that I'd take 2 of the cards with the rules of birdge on them and 4x this shit. Again, position, highly profitable c bets, a weak player with a weak range, and a hand better than the bridge rules card, don't think we need anything else to raise pre.

Obviously a hand like J8o is even better to raise up here though.

If we were oop 22 would be an easy check, 2 handed, 3 handed, 13 handed.

carrot has me convinced. if I had dog shit in my hand in the BB I raise to the SB limp why should it be different with 22.

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Originally Posted by kickass

carrot has me convinced. if I had dog shit in my hand in the BB I raise to the SB limp why should it be different with 22.

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This is pretty much what I've been doing while the table builds. Raise almost everything from the button until I get shut down. I also re-raise a fair amount when hu with pretty much anything that beats Q5ish hands. Don't know if this is correct or not but it has been working pretty well, although I've only been opening tables for a short while.

raise pre all day
bigger on flop and turn
shove river

I am a FR nit so I cant see how shoving river is +EV. What does he donk river with that we beat besides 2pair? The rest, like over sets, Flushes etc, beat us.

OK then here is a river call-a-raise range for opp:
44,A5s,KcQc,KcJc,KcTc,K9s,Kc8c,Kc7c,Kc6c,Kc5c,K4s-K2s,A5o,K9o

We have 32.5% equity against this range.

I did not include top pair hands because I don't see why he would just call flop and turn and suddenly decide to donk the river with any of these.

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Originally Posted by daviddem

OK then here is a river call-a-raise range for opp:
44,A5s,KcQc,KcJc,KcTc,K9s,Kc8c,Kc7c,Kc6c,Kc5c,K4s-K2s,A5o,K9o

We have 32.5% equity against this range.

I did not include top pair hands because I don't see why he would just call flop and turn and suddenly decide to donk the river with any of these.

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so what you're saying is you expect a random fish to play in a logical manner.

Well according to OP he is a random unknown, nothing says thus far that he is a fish (except if you PTR him...)

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Originally Posted by daviddem

Well according to OP he is a random unknown, nothing says thus far that he is a fish (except if you PTR him...)

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He just limp/called - he's a fish. You don't need 600 hands to figure this out or even 6.

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Originally Posted by Carroters

He just limp/called - he's a fish. You don't need 600 hands to figure this out or even 6.

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The limp/call implies that he's a fish, but since he's an unknown it could be a trap. I wouldn't worry about that on the very first hand that I'm playing against him. Assume he's fishy and play accordingly, highly aggressive until he shows some resistance.
It's a pretty easy call on the river, but I wouldn't raise.
Granted, he probably is a fish.
The donk bet more than likely means that he either hit his flush or set of 4's, but IMO the information gathered on his playing style would be more than worth the price of the call. It might either win a big pot or avoid a big loss in the future.

If the limp/ call is a "trap" then:

1. He's almost certainly a horrible fish

2. Even more reason to raise the river since he can have AK, AA etc.

a range that calls
A4cc/A5/AK/KQ/KJ/KcTc/Kc8c/Kc7c/Kc6c/Kc5c/K2/K3/23/K9/33/44/K4/42/43/56/99

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I probably check pre because 22 plays like shit and raise the river because we crush his river calling range like the angry fist of Allah on the infidels.

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Sick simile