10NL, small pair oop on low drawy board

This is 10NL Rush 6max, villain is 40/33/2 over 16 hands. Small sample, but he's a tag.

FLOP
Is a donk better than the c/r? Ever c/f'ing? I was surprised when he called the raise, thinking he'd often fold, sometimes 3-bet. At this point I think he has an overpair or fd.

TURN
I check because I don't think I have any FE after he called the flop. Would you bet again here? When he checks it back, I think he mostly has fd's.

RIVER
I'm happy to take a showdown, but now I've checked twice and look weak. And the flush draw missed of course. Then he bets big. Do you bluff-catch here? I thought about it but it didn't feel right.

What do you make of villain's line? It doesn't seem to make alot of sense except as a busted fd. It just seemed weird.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

Button ($7.05)
Hero (SB) ($38.49)
BB ($17.47)
UTG ($20.30)
MP ($10)
CO ($3.28)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif
UTG bets $0.30, 3 folds, Hero calls $0.25, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.70) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.70, UTG calls $1.20

Turn: ($4.10) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG checks

River: ($4.10) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $3, Hero folds

Total pot: $4.10 | Rake: $0.27

What's your goal with the flop raise?

i dont really get the flop c/r.
donking could be cool,but being oop, you could get into some tough spots on later streets...

/ his line doesnt make much sense...i dont see what he can be value betting here after flatting you on this flop and checking back the turn.

that was my thought too. If your not gonna charge him for another card on the turn, it doesn't make a lot of sense. Bluffing overpairs and charging fds. As it is who knows where you are?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

What's your goal with the flop raise?

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To take it down. I think I'm good right now alot of the time, and he'll give it up alot of the time, but I don't want any big cards to come off. What do you think about that, spoon?

Normally I'd donk there. Yeah, I think I played this hand badly. If I c/r, I should probably 2barrel. Not really sure.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by thelorax

/ his line doesnt make much sense...i dont see what he can be value betting here after flatting you on this flop and checking back the turn.

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This is what I was thinking. It was just weird. The draw shouldn't call the flop raise and the made hand shouldn't check back the turn.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by couriermike

To take it down. I think I'm good right now alot of the time, and he'll give it up alot of the time, but I don't want any big cards to come off. What do you think about that, spoon?

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Well what was your plan if you didn't take it down?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by couriermike

To take it down. I think I'm good right now alot of the time, and he'll give it up alot of the time, but I don't want any big cards to come off. What do you think about that, spoon?

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"To take it down" doesn't mean anything meaningful. What are you achieving? Are you pressing him to make a mistake? Are you getting value from draws? Are you trying to get him to fold overpairs?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EasyPoker

Well what was your plan if you didn't take it down?

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I think he folds here alot. I thought he'd reraise with an overpair, then I'm done with the hand. I guess my raise reps a set so now he might only call with an overpair tho. So pretty much I'm giving up if he doesn't fold and I don't improve.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

"To take it down" doesn't mean anything meaningful. What are you achieving? Are you pressing him to make a mistake? Are you getting value from draws? Are you trying to get him to fold overpairs?

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If he folds overs or a draw, he's giving up some equity share of the pot. That's something. I didn't expect him to fold an overpair.

So what do you do when you think you're good now but your hand is too weak to continue? Do you never 'bet to take it down?' I'm confused about this situation.

if you think he can fold 88-jj here (pro tip: you cannot make him fold 88-jj here) then i do not mind raising, but as it stands you have a fuck ton of SDV and should call (maybe even fold sometimes) on the flop...Also you are deep as shit are you really trying to bloat the pot with second pair?

try and think of it this way, if he keeps betting and you "think you are good" then you can call and find out at the end, if you raise then he likely folds all the hands that you beat (so you win the same money as if you had just called vs those hands) and he calls with all the hands that beat you (so you lose more money vs these better hands than if you had just called)

Here's what I'm thinking with the 'take it down' bet.

You have a weak made hand, some sdv, but you think you'll never make it to showdown (this is important) because you're oop and villain is aggro or whatever. So you bet (or raise) now to take it down. Your bet is not a value bet or a bluff because villain only folds worse and never folds better, say.

Don't you think there is some value in betting here to avoid reverse implied odds, to avoid getting bluffed etc, as long as he folds enough worse hands to make the bet +EV (ie you bet X to win Y and he folds at least X/(X+Y) of his range)?

In this hand, if I don't make a move on the flop, then I'm just giving up. Of course I'm never bluff-catching multiple streets with 66. I think giving up is OK but probably not as good as stabbing. Plus giving up seems like a shame because we are often good here, even though we're too weak to continue oop. Does that make sense?

On a completely different note...
How do you interpret villain's line?
Would you ever call the river?

what difference does it make how good we are if we never get to showdown?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by couriermike

Of course I'm never bluff-catching multiple streets with 66.

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sounds like a common leak that makes me teh monies

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kickass

what difference does it make how good we are if we never get to showdown?

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i'm not sure but i think having some equity share in the pot changes things

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

sounds like a common leak that makes me teh monies

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Do you like calling the river here? I finally tanked and folded. I think the bluff-catch makes more sense if I had donked or c/c'ed the flop and the rest of the hand played out the same.

Do y'all agree...
donking > c/r'ing otf?
betting > checking ott after c/r'ing flop?
folding > calling otr as played?

c/c>donking>c/r on the flop

Quote:

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Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

c/c>donking>c/r on the flop

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This.
And id be really tempted to bluff catch here. You could see something weird like JJ or something sometimes but his line looks real fos