Struggling with AK in 3bet pots

Hey guys... a couple hands from today that highlight a much more general difficulty that I've been having with playing AK when I miss the board, I feel like I'm butchering it pretty much every time and my confidence is just totally gone about these spots.

Villain in this hand was 34/29 over 122 hands... relevant history he had fired 2 barrels on a Jxx 2 hearts board and folded to my turn raise when the Qh hit. Had also seen him check back a river with the near nuts after firing 2 on a dry board.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
5 Players

Stacks:
UTG ($6)
CO ($5.07)
Hero ($6.23)
SB ($6.25)
BB ($4.93)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 5 players) Hero is BTN :kc: :as:
1 fold, CO raises to $0.15, Hero raises to $0.60, 2 folds, CO calls $0.45

Flop: :8c: :5c: :9s: ($1.27, 2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $0.80, CO raises to $2.25, $1.45 to Hero ($4.83)?

Flop looks like a fold to me, only other option would be a shove which seems to suck... not many draws he could be doing this with that are in his pf range for flatting 3bets, which leaves him basically with 88-JJ/QQ and some indefinite amount of air... without reads that he's messing around in these spots though no way I can put him on enough air here to justify a shove right?

The math for a shove would be... I have 22% when called against a fairly pessimistic calling range of 88-QQ only... so if x is the % he calls ev would be

EV = x((0.22*5.07) + (0.78*-5.07)) + 1-x(4.32)

Breakeven point there is him calling 60.3%... so he needs to have 40% air here for a shove to be good which means a shove isn't looking too good, so it looks like just fold flop.

Anyways on to hand #2...

Villain here was 26/26 over 21 hands, no significant reads.

$0.02/$0.05 No Limit Holdem
6 Players

Stacks:
UTG ($5.13)
UTG+1 ($4.98)
CO ($5.07)
BTN ($5.77)
Hero ($5.89)
BB ($7.44)

Pre-Flop: ($0.07, 6 players) Hero is SB :ks: :as:
1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $0.15, 2 folds, Hero raises to $0.60, 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $1.10, Hero calls $0.50

Flop: :9h: :3s: :5d: ($2.25, 2 players)
Hero bets $1.40, UTG+1 raises to $3.88, $2.48 to Hero ($3.39)?

Flop also seems like a fold here... his raising range again has me crushed, that seems pretty obvious. His preflop 4bet kinda tilted me I just never know what to do with AK here in those spots, I hate folding and calling puts me in ugly flop spots but it seems like a shove has little FE...

Anyways all of the above is more just me asking what I should be looking at in these spots. I tend to get lost a lot of the time, and I'm wondering what questions I should be asking myself in these spots pf and then on the flop given various textures of missed flops, villain tendencies, and in position vs OOP that would help me get on the right track towards being able to figure these out better for myself. Any insight you guys can offer about how you handle them would be much appreciated. Thanks!

I would fold to both those raises. Hand 1 is a bad board to c-bet. Hand 2, once villain 4-bets you, you're basically AK-mining, don't even c-bet there, just c/f.

AK used to be one of my biggest losing hands because I routinely over-played it. Remember, if you miss, you are far behind any pair. If they don't fold to the c-bet in a 3-bet pot, then they're not folding and it is OK to just give up. You can 2barrel smallish against some villains but don't run a big bluff. At that point, your FE is nil.

You don't always have to cbet. In hand 1 I'd check back because we can have the best hand and he probably continues with too much of his range if we bet. Hand 2 I'd just flat preflop. I also basically never flat 4bets and would never ever donk this flop given villain/previous actions. That is pure spew.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kmind

You don't always have to cbet. In hand 1 I'd check back because we can have the best hand and he probably continues with too much of his range if we bet.

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This, before cbetting try to think about how hard the flop hits the villains range, you have good showdown potential, and especially as this guy appears to be aggressive, this looks like a great spot to check your ace high. Also do remember that when you've missed it's always just ace high, equity preflop and equity postflop are two very different things. If you face much resistence post flop like this unless your certain the guy is just spazzing out it's almost always best to just fold it and wait until you have a hand.

you do realize that betting near 2/3 pot isn't always good, right?

Hand 1 -- remember that this cbet is a bluff. He raised you off of your bluff so it's time to ditch the hand. Also, Imthenewfish makes a good point -- betting 2/3 pot into that board makes it obvious that you missed. If you had a a high pair would you bet that small, or would you bet larger to get max value from smaller pairs and draws?

Hand 2 -- fold to the flop raise. I don't like the flop bet -- you missed your hand, you're OOP, check it over to him. If you thought he had enough hands in his range to make that bluff profitable, you should have 5bet him preflop when you still have better equity against his continuing range.

Don't get so attached to the fact that it's AK and "omg it's such a strong starting hand" that you spazz out postflop with A-high. Just do what you should normally be doing: put your opponents on a range and figure out your most profitable play against that range (which is sometimes simply folding).

H1 - Check back flop.

H2 - Consider shoving pre, c/f now.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by HoopyDude

H1 - Check back flop.

H2 - Consider shoving pre, c/f now.

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I recognize now that these are the right plays, obviously these are spots I need to work on... I wasn't starting this thread so much just looking for answers (although of course they are helpful) as hoping to start some discussion of how we play in at least what looks to me like a perennially difficult scenario where we've built a large pot preflop and 2/3 of the time end up without a made hand on the flop and our opponent's range is mostly polarized to very strong hands (overpairs) and hands just as weak as ours (whiffed overs). Maybe there's not as much that's interesting to talk about here as I thought there was, but the number of times I see hands like these posted all over the place makes me think I'm not the only one who has trouble with these spots and it might be worth some discussion.

you don't have to cbet so big dude.

His range in Hand 1 is a whole lot of pairs and high cards and scs when he calls pre, not much of this is folding on the flop. You can c-bet, but smaller or not at all.

hand 2 you can fold to the 4b or shove it over. Calling is gross. As played you can donk $0.90 if you really feel the need to bet. check-fold is pretty much standard tho

why would u EVER wanna bet that flop , especially once he chechks to you on the flop. I don't see the big issue , u basically have A hi

same goes for hand 2 i'd probably C/f flop depending on villains tendencies in 3 bet pots

in pot é actually why not get it aipf??

I wouldn't have cbet either pot. As played, fold both. Already lost enough in those hands. Find a better spot to get it in with.

1st hand he could have a flush draw, 1 or two pair, over pair, set, etc. You're probably drawing slim to an A or a K and that probably isn't good enough to win.

I don't mind calling the 4bet in the 2nd hand PF. After he 4bet you and raised your cbet, i think you have to give him cred for an overpair. Maybe you could split with AK, but it's not worth it. But after you miss w/that flop, i would have c/f.

its a fold on both, neither flop could be cbet cause he reraised pre , its impossible he'd be scared by that board... anyway, beong reraised even if you hit A or K its damn ugly and should play carefully cause he has KK+ in the reraise range pre. c/f both flops