KK, cbet this flop or not?

Villain 30/6 over like 35 hands

Button ($21.48)
SB ($11.07)
BB ($21.28)
UTG ($10.21)
UTG+1 ($22.92)
Hero (MP1) ($10)
MP2 ($10.40)
MP3 ($10)
CO ($10.87)

Preflop: Hero is MP1 with K:heart:, K:club:
1 fold, UTG+1 bets $0.20, Hero raises to $0.80, 6 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.60

Flop: ($1.75) A:diamond:, 10:diamond:, J:diamond: (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero ??

I could swear i saw someone post an extra blind hence the bigger than usual 3bet size. Off to a good start already...

A minbet then a call...he seems a bit cally so hes probably calling my 3bet with most or all of his opening range.
Can probably discount AA-KK since he didnt 3bet.
His range: AK AQ, then various mid to high pp's...

Basically i feel a bit lost on this flop. I think it connects to his range, i have no diamonds, and am facing a shove a lot if i cbet - but im a nit.

What do you guys think

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mbiz

i have no diamonds, and am facing a shove a lot if i cbet

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if this is your read then betting sounds like an atrocious idea since you'll fold to a jam from all his worse hands.

I'd bet/stack off here if we had Kd and had seem him do a bit of fishy shit before. But atm it's hit his range fairly hard and even if we are ahead now he will be a huge chance to improve so I'd say check behind the flop and if the turn is a blank and he checks again (which i don't think he will do a whole lot) we could maybe cbet to get him to fold out PP's and maybe get thin value from hands like QJ KJ (no diamond combos, and if we think hes capable of calling 3bets with this) but idk haha

this is like a super std ez check. play poker on the turn

2 options... you either c/f flop or you take a huge bluff line and start betting like you have the royal.

i see no other way to play this hand.

I check, turn is some blank, he bets $1.00 into $1.75 (i folded)

you played well ....thats poker.... holding KK aint gonna win always :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mbiz

I check, turn is some blank, he bets $1.00 into $1.75 (i folded)

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Call.

WHY should he call 1$ on that board? i really see no reason to do that. even if opp has no flush, after the call reraise preflop i give him this range: AKso, 1010+, and from that range we only beat QQ on that board so why call?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mbiz

I check, turn is some blank, he bets $1.00 into $1.75 (i folded)

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bbickes

Call.

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Agree. Check flop, call turn, if villain bets the river you can take betsizing/board texture into account. If villain checks a non-diamond river, make a decision but default towards checking back without a read that villain is a station, with the bonus of seeing their hand for free. If villain checks a diamond river, bet/fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

WHY should he call 1$ on that board? i really see no reason to do that. even if opp has no flush, after the call reraise preflop i give him this range: AKso, 1010+, and from that range we only beat QQ on that board so why call?

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I assume this is 10nl and villain minraised utg+1 at full ring. It may be a small sample but those stats look like someone who is slightly loose but also passive. From this, it's fair to assume villain's range could be wider than just the sensible AK, TT-QQ, and if villain did have TPTK/gutter, or TPTK/gutter/nut flush draw, or a flopped set, why are they only betting $1 into $1.75 on the turn?

We have KK in a 3bet pot with no other bet invested, vs a villain who is potentially not very good. Calling the turn is not a big mistake, probably not a mistake at all. There's also the chance that you can show down for free on a lot of rivers.

if its 10nl its ok to go your way, my first impression was we were 5nl, but 20$ stack are kind of big for 5nl so you may be right if its minraise from UTG+1 preflop.

but if it is 10nl then i will include in villains range flush combos and then again we no equity so no reason to call....

it is just my opinion, is what i would do , not an advice to others :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mbiz

I could swear i saw someone post an extra blind hence the bigger than usual 3bet size. Off to a good start already...

A minbet then a call...he seems a bit cally so hes probably calling my 3bet with most or all of his opening range.

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this made me think we are 5nl, but i def not saw "minbet" so he is on 10nl.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Razvan729

if its 10nl its ok to go your way, my first impression was we were 5nl, but 20$ stack are kind of big for 5nl so you may be right if its minraise from UTG+1 preflop.

but if it is 10nl then i will include in villains range flush combos and then again we no equity so no reason to call....

it is just my opinion, is what i would do , not an advice to others :)

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Haha, I don't mean to sound any more sure of myself than anyone else here, I just type my thought process.

Agree if this was 5nl it changes things somewhat, as an UTG+1 4x open is obviously different to an UTG+1 minraise.

One thing I would perhaps note is if you only have limited stats on a person, or it's the first time you've sat at the tables with them, I'd check their PTR purely to see what volume of hands they have put in. The more hands, the more likely you are to see them again. Coupled with their relatively cheap turn lead, this makes me want to find a line that lets me get to showdown and gain information. Folding the turn isn't that line.

i buy info about opp every day and that costs me 3-4 $ daily, so instead of having 10$ profit i have just 5-6$ (i am 2nl still ) , and i decided that is better to gain info about them on my nuts or on other people money, i mean observing him playing hands with other. with hands like that i tend to be very cautious and adopt a safe play. maybe it is not the best way to play poker and will never be World Champ , but brings me money every day :)

I agree with Bbickes and Dex. This super coordinated flop is really scary but by the same token it's kinduva bluff magnet, and you have a bluff-catcher. You can't ever bet on this board but it's reasonable to call two small bets on turn and river blanks.

Dex's idea of turning our hand into a bluff and b/f'ing a diamond river when checked to is really interesting. Usually that's done oop and is known as the Clarkmeister Theorem. Personally, I'd check it back, but bluffing there to fold out Ax no diamonds is good too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Bbickes

this is like a super std ez check. play poker on the turn

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^ this, and not even close