5/10: top pair 4bet pot deep

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10-30-2010, 01:55 PM
pocketfours

5/10: top pair 4bet pot deep

Villain is a 20/16 TAG with 7% 3bet. He's been 3betting me a bunch and this seemed like a decent spot to play back in position because both of us just got deep stacks.

Preflop bluff flops pretty well. Don't really know what to think about his call since my 4bet wasn't very small. Pretty hard to get value with this board. Even river could be too thin? 4bet sizing ok?

SB: $1,113.25
BB: $2,520.00
UTG: $394.00
Hero (CO): $2,198.75
BTN: $1,103.00

SB posts SB $5.00, BB posts BB $10.00

Pre Flop: ($15.00) Hero has K:heart: 8:heart:
fold, Hero raises to $30.00, fold, fold, BB raises to $110.00, Hero raises to $250.00, BB calls $140.00

Flop: ($505.00, 2 players) 9:club: 2:club: K:spade:
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($505.00, 2 players) Q:spade:
BB checks, Hero checks

River: ($505.00, 2 players) 4:heart:
BB checks, Hero bets $250.00
10-30-2010, 02:40 PM
IowaSkinsFan

Idk if its just me but im not seeing the flop suits. Is there a fd on flop? Does it complete on turn or river?

I think KQ has got to be a lot of his range here , suited connectors, or something completely random as far as calling the 4bet goes. I feel like there's a decent chance 99-TT, AQ shoves pre, but i wouldnt discount those too much either.. Given that I like how you've played it. I don't think he'd play anything your losing to this way. I'd bet more on the river just to be more bluffy.
10-30-2010, 05:52 PM
sauce123

4bet is slightly bad, but fine. bet flop for sure. as played i think turn check is fine and i obv like the river bet but id make it bigger
10-30-2010, 08:21 PM
Alexos

nitpicking but I'd 4bet a little bigger here, 275 ish? Id cbet flop as well, its not like we can expect a most likely uncreative TAG to put us in a tough spot but we do get one bet from TT/JJ w/out the board turning too ugly. Also b/c we might wanna bet our bluffs here as well.

As played Id blast the river, 350-370$, I think half pot wreaks of value.
10-30-2010, 09:23 PM
griffey24

I'd bet flop. Checking the flop looks like a hand with showdown value, and betting is likely perceived to have more bluffs in it.

I'd bet bigger on the river, he probably thinks your range is very polarized. He's either going to hero call or not, might as well make it look bluffy.
11-01-2010, 01:24 AM
pocketfours

ISF check your forum settings. Ben are you going three streets value here?

Feels to me like betting the flop could make our life very difficult in several scenarios and it might not allow us to win the pot when we have the best hand. We might also lose a whole lot more than we need to when we are beat.

Alexos about the 4bet I feel like we definitely want to give him a noncommitting 5 bet option. I also don't want to force him to 5bet or fold. Anyone else have thoughts on this?
11-01-2010, 12:24 PM
Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Alexos about the 4bet I feel like we definitely want to give him a noncommitting 5 bet option. I also don't want to force him to 5bet or fold. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Its only slightly more, and why do you want to give him to option to 5bet bluff here? I'd actually think of making it closer to 300 to *not* give him to option to 5bet bluff (unless he wants to shove, which would be a horrendous bluff) when I have K8 here. It's not like we want to shipit over his 5bet anyways, do we?

If we had AA then I agree to manipulate our bet sizing/stacks in order to have him do something dumb. The difference in the sizing are pretty small and unless you play a lot of hands vs this guy he'll never read into it anyways.

Also we'd have him call a bigger bet OOP and if he's the type to call them he'll have to c/f lots of flops and we win more manies.

Does my logic make sense?
11-01-2010, 02:14 PM
pocketfours

Well this villain was a reg so I don't really want to use exploitable sizings like you suggest.

A preflop game that is six bets deep is going to be much more complicated to solve for balance than one that is five bets deep. In other words I expect their ranges to be more exploitable if I force them to play a more complicated game.

I also don't feel like $275 is going to be flatted too often at all by a random TAG reg. Is that against your experience?
11-01-2010, 02:30 PM
pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by griffey24

I'd bet bigger on the river, he probably thinks your range is very polarized. He's either going to hero call or not, might as well make it look bluffy.

I guess I don't really agree that a bigger bet looks more bluffy in a 1knl game between two competent players.
11-01-2010, 03:17 PM
nutsinho

i slightly dislike preflop, like postflop- id prob bet 280 on river instead of 250 but 350+ is way too big, that doesnt make it look any more bluffy at all to someone good at poker
11-01-2010, 03:23 PM
Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by nutsinho

i slightly dislike preflop, like postflop- id prob bet 280 on river instead of 250 but 350+ is way too big, that doesnt make it look any more bluffy at all to someone good at poker

yeah true, 280-320 sounds good
11-01-2010, 04:21 PM
Alexos

Quote:

Originally Posted by pocketfours

Well this villain was a reg so I don't really want to use exploitable sizings like you suggest.

A preflop game that is six bets deep is going to be much more complicated to solve for balance than one that is five bets deep. In other words I expect their ranges to be more exploitable if I force them to play a more complicated game.

I also don't feel like $275 is going to be flatted too often at all by a random TAG reg. Is that against your experience?

Disagree with the whole balance thing, whether you make it 2.2x or 2.7x in this specific spot won't matter much. You just moved up to 5/10, he clearly won't read much into it so I'd definitely make my decision in a vacuum here.

Quote:

I also don't feel like $275 is going to be flatted too often at all by a random TAG reg. Is that against your experience?

Nah that's not what I meant, it will def be called less. I don't get it though, do you prefer him to call, fold, or 4bet?
11-01-2010, 10:29 PM
sauce123

depends on the runout, probably not though. I just think it hides my range better and we can still control potsize
11-02-2010, 12:05 AM
pocketfours

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

Disagree with the whole balance thing, whether you make it 2.2x or 2.7x in this specific spot won't matter much. You just moved up to 5/10, he clearly won't read much into it so I'd definitely make my decision in a vacuum here.

He sat on three of my tables and there was a lot of 3betting going on. If I decide to use exploitable sizings then I need to remember my previous bets against him (at least when he doesn't fold). I 4bet quite a lot and I don't think remembering preflop sizing against each opponent would be easy for me.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexos

Nah that's not what I meant, it will def be called less. I don't get it though, do you prefer him to call, fold, or 4bet?

I want to have a balanced (unexploitable) preflop strategy which I will deviate from when I find exploitable tendencies in my opponents. I certainly don't expect a 1knl TAG reg to be very easy to exploit preflop.

To answer your question, I want a sizing where his folding range combined with his calling range will be as wide as possible. I also want my bluffs to be as cheap as possible.