Hand range practice

So, at the risk of upsetting too many people I'd like to try another hand range.

I have over 250 hands against the villain in SB and his stats are: 12.82/5.41/2.38

I'm not going to use the Aggression factor because, to be honest, I'm really not sure how to.
As you can see the final result is a bit too small and I'm sure I must be doing something wrong along the way, but I'm not sure what.

Pacific Poker - $0.02 NL - Holdem - 7 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

BTN: $1.93
SB: $3.94
Hero (BB): $2.00
UTG: $1.90
UTG+1: $2.04
MP: $0.40
CO: $2.00

SB posts SB $0.01, Hero posts BB $0.02

Pre Flop: ($0.03) Hero has K:club: J:club:

UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.02, SB raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.06, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.06


So, his range preflop = 5.4% = 88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo according to Pokerstove. There isn't anything unlikely in that so I'll leave it as it is.


Flop: ($0.28, 3 players) 5:heart: 4:spade: 9:spade:
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

His first to act after flop check percentage = 31.58% = about a third of his range.


So we'll take the bottom third of his range .

His current range gives 16 + 4 + (4+4+4) +(7x6) = 16 + 4 +12 +42 = 74 combos

31% of 74 = 23 combos, and those will be the bottom 23 combos.
However, I have a K and a J so that takes out 3 combos each?

23 -3 -3 = 17 combos = 88,99,AKo, which is really about 25 combos but I don't see how to split AKo.


Turn: ($0.28, 3 players) 8:spade:
SB checks, Hero checks, BTN checks

His Turn check percentage is 46% so that puts him on the bottom 12 of his range and that would be 88,99.
But, since he didn't raise he can't have 99 and then on Turn he can't have 88 or a flush.


River: ($0.28, 3 players) 2:diamond:
SB bets $0.14, fold, fold

River he bets, but that doesn't seem to hit his range at all so maybe he is just guessing neither of us did either.

SB wins $0.27

Clearly I've gone wrong somewhere unless he really did have AKo.

Easy: don't call a raise from a 13/5 with KJ, especially as you are likely to be sandwiched between him and 1-3 other players.

As for the range on the flop, you can't just take what you call the bottom of his range as his checking percentage. You can't use his stats from your database to break down his range, apart to help you to get an idea of what his tendencies are (does he c-bet a lot out of position, for example). You have to be more specific and take his preflop range and decide with which specific hands in that range he will check this flop, in this particular situation.

For example it would be reasonable to assume that he would bet only 99+ on this flop as he is out of position against two other players, and his "bet flop out of position" stat of 31% pretty much tells you that he plays "fit or fold". So his checking range would be his entire preflop range minus 99+. If you think that he would bet also his flush draws, then his checking range on the flop is his preflop range minus 99+ and minus all his suited spades hands.

Keep in mind that it is the same thing preflop: you can't just say "his raises 5% of his hands according to my DB", so I will take the top 5% of hands in Pokerstove to decide what his preflop raising range is. You have to look at the whole picture: he is in the SB, will be out of position after the flop, possibly against a lot of players because there are 3 limpers. His range should be narrower than if he opens on the button, so it's probably less than 5%... 5% is only the average of all hands he played against you, regardless of the particular situation of this particular hand. Again, use the 5% only as an indication of his tendencies.

Hope this helps.

Read the articles and posts about how to do this properly. Search for "range" in the title of the post or article, and you shall find...

don't make the mistake of thinking the 5 in 12/5.4 = his pokerstove range. It doesn't work like that afaik. You probably want to add a few more hands to his range so in stove it could be about 8%.

I could be wrong, but I made those exact same mistakes at first and was pulled up on it for these reasons.

I'm glad your focused on postflop but fold preflop. His range is just way to tight to play this vs. him unless you have specific reads that I really doubt you have. Just fold preflop. I mean yeah you ended up getting another call but still it's really not good. You have bad RIO EVEN when you hit something.

Also - in general, you can't put the same amount of weight on his postflop stats (ie he checks 31% of flops) on every flop. Flop textures are different, some flops will be multiway, what does he do vs. certain stack sizes, etc. I guess at 2NL it's not as big of an issue but it still is I'm sure.

And his "bottom range" on the flop isn't his bottom PREFLOP range. So he's definitely betting 99 here in most cases and probably 88 as well. You have to adjust with each street.

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Originally Posted by Tasha

UTG calls $0.02, UTG+1 calls $0.02, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.02, SB raises to $0.08, Hero calls $0.06, fold, fold, BTN calls $0.06


So, his range preflop = 5.4% = 88+,AJs+,KQs,AKo according to Pokerstove. There isn't anything unlikely in that so I'll leave it as it is.

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:facepalm:

Preflop is fine, especially if one of the 3 limpers is fishy and you have position on SB. Just be aware of SB's range post flop.. you're not looking to stack off if you hit top pair vs SB.

Played perfectly fine all the way.

Tasha your efforts are commendable to say the least. You have shown that you are pretty determined to improve and I don't doubt you will. It would appear you possibly went to pokerstove and slid the little slider bar over until you 5.4% of the hands. That isn't exactly how it works although it is better than nothing. When narrowing down his range in later streets you use a lot of different information such as reads, tells etc and also how the cards would interact with the range you put him on and his actions. I know this is very general and probably not a lot of help. My main purpose in responding was to incourage you to continue asking questions and working through things. See if you can't get a one on one conversation going in irc about ranges and make sure you read all you can.
Like others have said on this particular hand folding pre would have been your best move!

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Originally Posted by tyrn

Preflop is fine, especially if one of the 3 limpers is fishy and you have position on SB. Just be aware of SB's range post flop.. you're not looking to stack off if you hit top pair vs SB.

Played perfectly fine all the way.

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Just so we're clear, I disagree and I sort of explained it earlier.

KJs vs a 5% PFR is not a hand you want to be playing 100bb deep. Too many times we hit top pair and can't get value out of it if we are ahead or we lose when they have something better. And then the flops where we don't hit fuuuuuuuuuuuuun stuff.

If you have some arguments I'd like to hear them. It may improve my game.

Let's a take a simple example to show you what's wrong with your logic. Take an opponent whose range preflop is A2+. So preflop, what you call the bottom of his range is A2. Now comes the flop AA2. After this flop, do you still think A2 is the bottom of his range? No way. It's now the very top of his range!

Once again, many thanks for the responses and encouragement. :)

A few things in response.

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KJs vs a 5% PFR is not a hand you want to be playing 100bb deep.

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Firstly, I should start with why I played KJ. To be honest, I'm not sure. It might have been an earlier hand or I was trying to play around with ranges but either way I doubt I would play those cards today from that position and it is good to see that is what you all advise. At least I am getting that right. :rolleyes:

Now, for Pokerstove. I've seen other people doing that same trick of just putting in a percentage and then using the hand range that results and they always get told off so I was expecting to get called on that. The problem I had is that 5% isn't very much. Each additional combo that you add to the range increases the percentage by quite a bit. There also seems to be two opinions on that, one saying to reduce it further because of Villain's position, the other to increase it.
Is this a particular problem that arises when the percentage you are working with is so narrow? If we were discussing a 20% range then adding or subtracting 3% is less of a problem.

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Let's a take a simple example to show you what's wrong with your logic. Take an opponent whose range preflop is A2+. So preflop, what you call the bottom of his range is A2. Now comes the flop AA2. After this flop, do you still think A2 is the bottom of his range? No way. It's now the very top of his range!

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and

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And his "bottom range" on the flop isn't his bottom PREFLOP range. So he's definitely betting 99 here in most cases and probably 88 as well. You have to adjust with each street.

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I think I see what you mean, and I hadn't thought about that. I'll try and remember that for next time.

I'll have another go with another hand that has a bit more action in it and see how it goes.

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Originally Posted by kmind

Just so we're clear, I disagree and I sort of explained it earlier.

KJs vs a 5% PFR is not a hand you want to be playing 100bb deep. Too many times we hit top pair and can't get value out of it if we are ahead or we lose when they have something better. And then the flops where we don't hit fuuuuuuuuuuuuun stuff.

If you have some arguments I'd like to hear them. It may improve my game.

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A lot has to do with the raise size. He raised to 4bb with 3 limpers. If you call 3bb from BB it's likely you'll be in a big multiway pot with a hand that plays well multiway. The fact UTG and UTG+1 limped then folded to a 3bb raise is weird, they're probably really bad, I would expect 4-5 way pot most of the time. You're looking to hit 2 pair or better and get paid off. SB will be playing very honest post flop multiway, and you've got position on him. If you miss or hit top pair vs SB who's still firing hard, you can fold and get away very cheap.

A portion of the time SB may have AQ or JJ and c/f flop when it comes K high rainbow, leaving you in the pot with the limp callers. You can still get value when you're ahead, SB isn't the only one in the pot.