Is there anyway to not go broke here?

Hey guys,

Had a lot of ups and downs today. Managed to get +10BBs in the session. I'd like your opinions about the following hand. First of all...I wonder if this is an obvious 3 bet spot. First raiser was 18/12 and second 18/15 (apparently regs). I decided to call in position even though the squeeze would be probably more profitable.

Nice flop. I bet half hoping to get worse hands in (and perhaps a suspicious raise). Got a caller...terrific! Well...not. The rest you can see below:


No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG ($14.61)
MP ($10.89)
Hero (Button) ($10.97)
SB ($18.53)
BB ($2)
Preflop: Hero is Button with Q:spade:, A:club:
UTG bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25
Flop: ($1.45) 7:club:, Q:heart:, Q:diamond: (4 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP checks, Hero bets $0.72, 2 folds, MP calls $0.72
Turn: ($2.89) 8:club: (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $1.50, MP raises $4.20, Hero raises $5.60, MP raises $5.62 (All-In), Hero calls $2.72
River: ($22.53) J:spade: (2 players, 1 all-in)
Total pot: $22.53
Results below:
Hero had Q:spade:, A:club: (three of a kind, Queens).
MP had 8:heart:, 8:diamond: (full house, eights over Queens).
Outcome: MP won $21.43

This is a bad spot to 3bet AQ, why do you think that is?

Flop bet can be bigger. You are just being results orientated, stacking off in this spot is fine.

not once you 3b the turn :D

Why not pot the flop?

As played I am getting it in every time...

i'm just gonna ignore the cooler post and address the other things you had questions about:

i said it before and i'll say it again. whether or not you should 3b preflop for value depends on a vary obvious factor: will the other players in the pot continue with dominated hands?

reads, image and 3b stats help here.

flop, same thing. checking, betting 1/2 pot and betting near full pot are all good play depending on what type of regs these are. reads help here

are these regs calling/raising/folding different ranges based on your sizing? are you gonna be able to get more streets of value, or get them to spazz out thinking htat you're weak or get them to make huge mistakes when they catch up on the turn if you check it back?

readless, i tend to assume the answer is not really to both of those questions against regs, and i tend to bet flop close to pot (large enough to be able to get it in by the river ldo).

Dare I say it... fold pre flop? I'm not sure I actually would, but I'd be thinking that I should. UTG was 18/12? Has he been playing tight UTG? It's difficult to fold AQo here pf, we're on the button after all, but there's an UTG raiser and two calls. There's probably at least one pair and an ace or two for good measure, and if UTG has been tight in this position, I'm assuming AK, or tens better, with small pairs and/or suited aces in the middle positions, unless we have a fish or two. Raising is of course an option, but since UTG probably has AK (in my mind), I'd be too afraid. I'd want to fold, but am probably incapable of it here.

I'm not sure I'd bet huge on the flop though. What are we afraid of? Someone hitting a two outer? Let them see another card for half the pot, it's still a really, really bad call.

When he raises the turn, ok I'm actually thinking 77 or 88 and I very probably stack off like a fool and cry bad beat when he shows. Please be KQ. Please be KQ. Fuck.

I think it's very difficult to avoid going broke here, it would have been an awesome thing if it was acheived.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

Dare I say it... fold pre flop?

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Oh no, not that again.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

F**k.

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Is what you meant to say. Everyone else does even if they would rather say something else.

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Originally Posted by surviva316

betting 1/2 pot

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Why would this every be good?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tasha

Is what you meant to say. Everyone else does even if they would rather say something else.

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No, I definitely meant to say fuck. I'm guessing we're all over 18 in here, yes?

If a moderator asks me not to swear, then fair enough, but until then I'll type what I wish without censoring it. I don't intend to offend people, but a word shouldn't offend, it's the context which is important. I wasn't rude to anyone.

Back on topic, really I think this should be folded, unless we have seen UTG disregard position with semi-good hands previously. He's raised UTG. What's his range? 99+, AJs+ (and that I think is loose for someone in this position playing 18%). MP calls. What's his range? 66+, suited paint, AQ+... I don't think we match up well to these ranges. I haven't got stove. Someone do some mashing!

What equity do we need to make the call for a flop? 30%? I dunno, bottom line is I think we're up against AK and a pair, which sucks fat penis. Fold!

Oops, I called. I'm a big fat hypocrite.

@ hoopydude

What's your reasoning for betting the flop bigger?

Pre-flop is perfectly fine. The player opened in the HJ seat ffs.

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Originally Posted by surviva316

(...)

flop, same thing. checking, betting 1/2 pot and betting near full pot are all good play depending on what type of regs these are. reads help here

are these regs calling/raising/folding different ranges based on your sizing? are you gonna be able to get more streets of value, or get them to spazz out thinking htat you're weak or get them to make huge mistakes when they catch up on the turn if you check it back?

(...)

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Surviva, would you mind expanding a bit on the underlined above? I'm interested in hearing more on this.

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Originally Posted by Tasha

Why would this every be good?

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Because if you can bluff for 1/2 pot then you should be value betting for 1/2 pot. Potting it is obviously perfectly fine and probably doesn't change a lot of villains continuing range but it could. If it doesn't then you should be 1/2 potting(This may not make sense) since you will be bluffing so much in this spot. Obviously this all pertains to balance which you probably won't have to worry about too much. The "regs" at these stakes won't realize you are 1/2 potting bluffs and potting w/ Qx/77 here. Dunno how much sense this makes to you but I help it clarifies some things.

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

No, I definitely meant to say fuck. I'm guessing we're all over 18 in here, yes?

If a moderator asks me not to swear, then fair enough, but until then I'll type what I wish without censoring it. I don't intend to offend people, but a word shouldn't offend, it's the context which is important. I wasn't rude to anyone.

Back on topic, really I think this should be folded, unless we have seen UTG disregard position with semi-good hands previously. He's raised UTG. What's his range? 99+, AJs+ (and that I think is loose for someone in this position playing 18%). MP calls. What's his range? 66+, suited paint, AQ+... I don't think we match up well to these ranges. I haven't got stove. Someone do some mashing!

What equity do we need to make the call for a flop? 30%? I dunno, bottom line is I think we're up against AK and a pair, which sucks fat penis. Fold!

Oops, I called. I'm a big fat hypocrite.

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What the fuck? Seriously 99+,AJs+,AQo+ for HIGHJACK opening range? he isn't UTG @ a FR table ffs and 99+,AQs+,AKo would be a TIGHT UTG opening range @ FR. The flatting range almost certainly doesn't include QQ+/AK depending on reads ofcourse but I wouldn't include those hands in general so why are you even worried about him, if he's flatting worst Ax and small pairs and suited broadways etc you have him pretty heavily dominated.

I'm all for avoiding creating "tough" situations for ourselves but wtf we have the tough of our flatting range pre and you want to fold it??? Never flatting on your btn(I assume you'd 3b AK/QQ+) is absurd v a highjack/CO open. If you are folding AQ yes you might as well fold JJ too since overcards can flop ohnoez.

Hand is played perfectly fine, I would probably go something like 1.15, 3, shove river, postflop fwiw. Obviously getting it in at any point villain(s) raises.

Oh and obviously betting more on the turn if you get more then 1 caller on the flop

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Penneywize

Surviva, would you mind expanding a bit on the underlined above? I'm interested in hearing more on this.

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Pretty sure he's talking about letting villains hit pairs or improve to straight/flush draws and just potting turn and potting river. Betting flop causes hands like JT(Continues on a 9,possibly A, or 8) to fold, all hands that can turn a flush draw to fold, all unpaired hands to fold. All hands that can improve to 2pair. Our check back is also deceptive. All sorts of good things can happen if we check back the turn and like a K rolls off. AK bets, KJ calls, we get to raise or flat and most certainly get at least one bet on the river.

On the flop we aren't getting value from many worst hands(Very few combos of Qx), 22-66 are horrible hands to call flop with. There are no FDs/SDs to worry about getting there so checking may yield more eV than betting.

five posts in a row, tha banz imo.

Also: c-c-c-combo breaker!

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Originally Posted by Icanhastreebet

Pretty sure he's talking about letting villains hit pairs or improve to straight/flush draws and just potting turn and potting river. Betting flop causes hands like JT(Continues on a 9,possibly A, or 8) to fold, all hands that can turn a flush draw to fold, all unpaired hands to fold. All hands that can improve to 2pair. Our check back is also deceptive. All sorts of good things can happen if we check back the turn and like a K rolls off. AK bets, KJ calls, we get to raise or flat and most certainly get at least one bet on the river.

On the flop we aren't getting value from many worst hands(Very few combos of Qx), 22-66 are horrible hands to call flop with. There are no FDs/SDs to worry about getting there so checking may yield more eV than betting.

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Alright, sounds pretty standard. Thanks for spelling it out so clearly though. I think I may have misread his comment as something like "... so that this villain might make mistakes in this spot after hitting his full house" which sounded a little off.

Anyhow, as though it hadn't been said before - hand was destined for coolerdom.

Hard laydown but I think the turn is where you realize something is up with the small reraises he was making.

Tasha, tell Icanhastreebet off too then, teacher.

"he isn't UTG @ a FR table ffs"

Huh? It's the UTG raise I'm most worried about, not the MPs call, although the MP call looks like a pocket pair and as such has me worried when he's raising the turn. But I want to fold pre flop because UTG has raised, very probably with a big ace or big pair, and MP has called, very probably with a big ace or any pair. AQ is in real bad shape to these ranges, what, we hoping for AJ and AJ? One of them has blockers, and the other is ahead pf with a pair. AQ is fold. Do I actually fold it? I don't know, but after this showdown of course I'm saying I should have done. I'd bet my right arm UTG folded AK at the flop.

OngBonga -- not to be a jerk here, but in one thread you're asking if it's OK for you to call a minraise from the BB with 92o, then here you're advocating folding AQ from the BB in a 3way pot when you only have to call .25 into a 1.20 pot vs. two full-stacked opponents. You need to find a middle ground.

AQ is a great hand, especially in a 5-handed game. Ok, so the UTG raised and the MP called -- use that information to figure out their ranges before the flop hits. If you hit top pair by spiking an ace on the flop, you're only behind AA and AK. If you hit a Q on the flop, you're only behind QQ+. So basically, you're afraid of about 19 combos out of possibly 70 or more that the UTG could have. And the MP range is even wider with less chance of him having QQ+,AK because he would probably 3bet part of that range.

Don't misunderstand me -- there are spots to fold AQ preflop. But this isn't one of them.

"...you only have to call .25 into a 1.20 pot vs. two full-stacked opponents."

Yeah ok, even dominated I guess we're getting a good price.

"...you're afraid of about 19 combos out of possibly 70 or more that the UTG could have."

This is my problem though, I'm not putting him on 70 combos, I've got him on 99+ AQs+ AK, and MP has a few more pairs and suited broadways to add. I'm thinking "Whew, I'm drawing on just the queen here if I'm lucky". I don't really need stove to tell me AQ is well behind the range I just gave for UTG, but I don't know about whether it's a realistic opening range for an 18/12 UTG. Add to that range a call by a slightly wider range, and I'm thinking this is a bad spot.

"If you hit top pair by spiking an ace on the flop, you're only behind AA and AK."

Yeah, but how likely is this UTG raise AK?

"And the MP range is even wider with less chance of him having QQ+,AK because he would probably 3bet part of that range."

Yeah for sure. This is why it stinks of a middle pp up to jacks maybe, or suited broadway at worst. I'm not in fear of MP pf, I'm seeing a flop and either outflopping him or folding the majority of the time. We stack off rarely if he has pp.

I really don't know. I guess I'm going by my gut instinct that UTG has AK here, and with a likely pp cold calling from middle, I'm not feeling comfortable at all. But you're right, pot odds are pretty good, and implied odds huge.

Like I say, I don't think I fold this spot, it's just I want to...

Oh hai.

http://img413.imageshack.us/img413/5811/sighlol.png

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, A
UTG bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25

UTG bets $0.35

UTG bets $0.35

Am I missing something?

The Villain might not be UTG, but the opener is. This is why I want to fold AQ pf. Because UTG opened. A 18/12 UTG. He's no maniac is he? This UTG opening raise is, in my opinion, 99+, AQs+, AK. UTG opened, HJ came along for the ride with his pockets and got lucky. I don't want to fold this at the turn, I stack off on the turn. I want to fold it pf when we know we're in bad shape. Well, I know we're in bad shape. UTG folded AK, that was all but confirmed when he folds the flop.

....Highjack opens, CO calls, we have btn w/ AQ. I posted a picture because I thought it might help you. You sir...I just don't know.

Right, I am missing something... 5 handed... so... HJ is UTG... I'm not really sure why that's a huge issue, we're sort of... both... right... I guess 5 handed UTG's range is wider, so for sure my range is too tight for UTG opener here (yes, he is still UTG, even 5 handed). So I can see that my wanting to fold AQ here pf is wrong because we can add a whole lot more hands to the opening range than I initially gave credit for. But, please, the opener is UTG here, we can all see that.

Just to be clear about your little picture, if there's no-one sat in those yellow seats, the HJ becomes UTG. UTG means the person first to act pre flop, he doesn't have to be sat in the chair directly to the left of the bb. If there's no-one in that seat, then the next seat is UTG, and if there's no-one in that chair, then the next one. And so on. UTG is first person to act.

So I guess when we're in the SB HU we're UTG, OIC how fucking insightful bro, you have opened my eyes. Now I must gouge them out.

Well, you can call it SB, UTG, what you like. It's much less relevant HU. But, 5 handed, you're still first to act if you're the HJ. I'd quite like to play you five handed if I'm sat one or two seats to your left if you're playing loose in the "HJ", blissfully unaware that UTG exists in anything other than FR.

Under The Gun - Poker Dictionary Definition

Preflop: Hero is Button with Q, A
UTG bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35, Hero calls $0.35, 1 fold, BB calls $0.25

I wonder why the hand converter calls it UTG?

I wish I had the know how and will to change that little picture of the two guys with their heads open. I'd chage the card suits in the arrow to shit, I think it would be more appropriate.

Do you think if we take the actual chair away and put it somewhere else, like the living room or outside in the garden, then maybe the next seat becomes UTG? It's about actual seats, nothing to do with how many people are dealt into the hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by OngBonga

I wish I had the know how and will to change that little picture of the two guys with their heads open. I'd chage the card suits in the arrow to shit, I think it would be more appropriate.

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http://memegenerator.net/Advice-Dog/...-u-mad-bro.jpg

So... there's six people dealt into a hand on a nine seater table... the three empty seats are all directly to the left of the bb... is the first person to act UTG+3?

UTG becomes largely irrelevant once we get three handed (as in three people dealt in). But, of course, when we're short handed, we're playing a wider range anyway, aren't we? We're raising any ace by now, probably suited kings, certainly 22. It's a different game. Five handed is still short handed, but let's not go wild UTG huh? You still have zero information on the rest, which puts you at a disadvatage to the rest of the table, who will all get that little bit more information with every fold/call/raise. We are first to act, we are therefore UTG, and we are potentially multi way. We can be looser than 9 handed UTG for sure, but I'm not raising any ace here just yet. My range, 5 handed UTG in this spot, is way wider than the first range I gave for UTG, but it's still, what, A7s+, AT+, KTs+, KJo+, 22+. Now, fine, AQ is clearly not a fold to this range on the bb, and I'm sorry for ever suggesting it was. I thought we had more people dealt in, and so the UTG raise was that little bit scarier. But, UTG still very much exists in 5-handed play, regardless of if there is an empty seat where UTG would be at a full table. Empty seats might as well not be there, it just makes the game shorter handed. How many people are dealt in determines who is under the gun. 4 handed or more, where it's relevant to a degree, and it's always the third person dealt a card.

Another point. Let's say we're at a full ring table, 9 seater, in an mtt, and the four people who are sat to the left of the bb are all sat out. It's now on us after they auto-fold, we're on the HJ position. We're effectively UTG in a five handed game, because the cards that have been dealt and auto-folded could be aces, kings, twos, whatever, they're dead cards and might as well form the bottom of the deck. No-one has gained any information on those folded cards, and so we are the first at the table to give information away. We are Under The Gun. Well, I am, you can be in whatever position you want to be in if it makes you happy.

the point is utg is essentially the HJ position in this case so we can give him a HJ pos opening range.

even pluggin in 12% in poker stove vs AQo gives us ....

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 46.813% 42.40% 04.42% 1106354982 115261135.50 { 77+, A9s+, KTs+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KJo+ }
Hand 1: 53.187% 48.77% 04.42% 1272674043 115261135.50 { AQo }

"the point is utg is essentially the HJ position in this case so we can give him a HJ pos opening range."

Yeah I can accept this. I just can't accept that UTG doesn't exist five handed. I'm wrong to even consider folding AQ here five handed, but if this 8+ I'd be worried, very worried.

The only position I like is the one where your bent over.

Jesus Christ OngBonga, everyone here knows that utg is the person first to act no matter how many people are playing. What everyone else is trying to say is that the person that's utg at a table of 9 will usually be opening a MUCH tighter range than the person whos opening utg at a 5 handed table. "99+ AQs+ AK" is an opening range for utg a 9 handed table, not a 5 handed table.

"Jesus Christ OngBonga, everyone here knows that utg is the person first to act no matter how many people are playing."

Not quite everybody. Ya fine, we got there in the end. You're a bit late, hang your coat up and get a drink.

I think your play is fine. You wan't to wipe out AA, KK, KQ, QT QJ (which outdraws you), some trashier including some draws. You are fully aware that you could be up against a pocket pair that flopped a boat. In which case you'll lose a big chunck of your stack. More than reasonable.

{Locked}

Remember that the point of this forum is to learn, not to argue over stupid shit.