QQ overpair vs poss straight on rainbow board (5NL FR)

I've got QQ in MP and flop an overpair w/ a rainbow board that has a possible straight. I don't have a lot of stats on the villain, but if anything he's a bit LAG. I put in a standard PFR & big raise on flop OOP. At that point I was a little worried he had A9, K9, but was thinking maybe he was loose & playing ATC and just had a pair. The turn was a scary, but I fired the double barrel. (Perhaps a bad idea?) The river paired the board.

The question is: to fire or not to fire the triple barrel? (I think I know the answer to this, but figured I'd check.

Full Tilt - $0.05 NL - Holdem - 9 players
Hand converted by PokerTracker 3

CO: $2.70
BTN: $4.92
SB: $8.13
BB: $0.88
UTG: $4.28
UTG+1: $8.18
MP: $4.00
Hero (MP+1): $5.17
LP: $1.68

SB posts SB $0.02, BB posts BB $0.05, CO posts DB $0.05

Pre Flop: (pot: $0.12) Hero has Q♠ Q♥
fold, fold, fold, Hero raises to $0.15, fold, CO calls $0.10, BTN calls $0.15, fold, fold

Flop: ($0.52, 3 players) 7♣ 8♥ 6♦
Hero bets $0.75, fold, BTN calls $0.75

Turn: ($2.02, 2 players) T♠
Hero bets $1.30, BTN calls $1.30

River: ($4.62, 2 players) 8♠
Hero .....

Bets (shoves)? Check/calls? Check folds? Or just wishes he hadn't gotten this far....

Don't have too much time so I won't list explicit ranges till later.

PF - I like raising 4xbb especially at micro's, but not a big deal that you bet 3xbb.

Flop - Villain's calling range otb is most likely wide PF and so going into the flop, this over pot value bet isn't too bad, but you have to think about what worst hands will call if you overbet like this: 99+, bad players calling draws without proper odds.

Turn - Due to the reverse implied odds, I'd check here. This is why being oop sucks; you have no info on the villain's hand (since you don't know his floating tendencies, or if he's a station, etc) and he'd call here with a lot of hands that hit his range (66+, 45s+, 56o+, 67s+). Lots of two pair, trips, straights that beat you.

River - This is another terrible card that hurts your hand a lot. It completes flushes and boats all within his PF calling range. This is a clear check/fold without reads on your opponent (unless his river bet was low enough that you had enough equity to call obviously). A bet here will be for value (this is a terrible board to bluff) and you have to think about what worst hands will call. Not many hands will: JJ maybe?

I know my analysis was kinda spotty; I'm at my gf's and there's a lot going on here, but the most important tip I can give you (other than read everything in the Beginner's Digest) is to put villains on ranges every time. Then when you're deciding to make a bet, think about why you're betting and whether the bet you are making will work (read everything in the Beginner's Digest to figure out how to decide if it will work). Did I mention you should read everything at: http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...re-123008.html

in b4 daven says we should have a plan

Cuz, we should have a plan :P

PF: 5x seems right, theres a poster in the hand so its like he limped...plus hes likely some sort of funky bad fish cuz he posted...so we can expect a call from him alot.

Based on btns action after co called, im immediately discounting QQ+ and AK because these hands like 3beting usually and probably would prefer it heads up...he might 3bet em...but who knows.

Flop: What do you know about mr. btn? Is he calling alot with suited connectors? Broadways? PPs? Anything suited? Ax? All of the above?

Regardless, theres only a few hands that continue. 22-JJ, A8, A7, A6, A9, A5, and almost every suited connector hit this board so they continue too.

Plan time:

We are always getting bets from the nuts, 54, 9T, pair+straightdraw, two pair and sets are probably never ever folding ever. Thats alot of nut hands in villains range. What else calls bets though?

Of that list, id say only really TP type hands made up of things like A8, and maybe some type of weird A9 straight draw type of hand. TT-JJ too of course, and maybe some other weak pairs.

By betting over the size of the pot, most of the latter range is gonna fold ya? So we're effectively building a very large pot against a range that is much much stronger than ours...not too mention all the cards that could come that only make things worse. Also those discounted QQ-AA hands before are also in this range...so like, this is really bad.

Turn: As played, we isolated that really strong range. JJ just picked up a straight draw, TT just got there, 9x just got there...we only get value out of JJ and like A8 now when theres a huge amount of hands that could easily be in villains range that we are just crushed by.

Well kids, here's the dramatic conclusion to the hand. (Probably not a huge surprise here)....

River: ($4.62, 2 players) 8http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/im...lies/spade.gif
Hero bets $2.97 and is all-in, BTN calls $2.72 and is all-in

Hero shows Qhttp://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/im...lies/spade.gif Qhttp://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/im...lies/heart.gif (Two Pair, Queens and Eights)
BTN shows 9http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/im...lies/heart.gif Khttp://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/im...lies/heart.gif (Straight, Ten High)
BTN wins $9.39

Ok so first off, I think the villain made a questionable call to my PFR, but then again it wasn't a very big raise ... or maybe it was reasonable to call w/ K9s? Uuug.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

Based on btns action after co called, im immediately discounting QQ+ and AK because these hands like 3beting usually and probably would prefer it heads up...he might 3bet em.

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Right, which is why I figured I had the best hand on the flop.

On the flop I figured I'd overbet to charge him a lot to play an OESD -- which frankly, I didn't put him on. I was thinking (hoping) more like PP or maybe AXs and he made a pair. According to PokerStove, I was beating him 56% vs 44% on the flop, which really isn't great I now realize.. Of course he lucked out, got his straight on the turn, called me, and let me dig my own hole when I idiotically shoved even though I now had a scary turn AND river card. F--k me. I think I just knew checking was probably giving up the pot.

Two questions: 1) Was it ok to overbet the flop in the first place? In hindsight I feel like that was the only thing I did right ... but maybe not.

2) And if I felt compelled to bet the turn (yes, I know I shouldn't' have), was betting ~2/3 of the pot showing weakness after a flop overbet?

Thanks for the response guys! This is great. :)

I detect a slight hint here from you of something which I am very familiar with - don't make the subconscious mistake (which believe me I am constantly guilty of) of thinking that because villain made a questionable / bad play early in the hand, he has no right to be ahead later on. It stops you from adapting to the villain and in a weird way can stop you from being sufficiently self critical.

Remember, just because the fish aren't as good as us, and just because they can luck out against us at times, doesn't mean we don't have to be constantly thinking and adapting to the changing situation in a hand.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

I detect a slight hint here from you of something which I am very familiar with - don't make the subconscious mistake (which believe me I am constantly guilty of) of thinking that because villain made a questionable / bad play early in the hand, he has no right to be ahead later on. It stops you from adapting to the villain and in a weird way can stop you from being sufficiently self critical.

Remember, just because the fish aren't as good as us, and just because they can luck out against us at times, doesn't mean we don't have to be constantly thinking and adapting to the changing situation in a hand.

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this is a good point, i always find myself being like "well he shouldnt have called my flop bet so wtf" but really you just need to take note and adjust your future ranges and wtfpwn him

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Monsieur_chat

don't make the subconscious mistake (which believe me I am constantly guilty of) of thinking that because villain made a questionable / bad play early in the hand, he has no right to be ahead later on.

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Yes! Right on.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

i always find myself being like "well he shouldnt have called my flop bet so wtf"

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This is exactly what I think sometimes. It's like of like I want to say:

"Really? Really dude? So you're going to call my overbet on the flop when I know I have the best hand right now (because if you had AA or KK you would have either 3bet preflop or bet something larger than one single freakin' bb to open the flop). Well if you're going to play like a passive little fish here's my second barrel, and here's my third! Enjoy that! I can't wait until you show me your TPBK or middle pair on the river and I will have made me you feel like a donk. Ha. Can't wait. Oh, shit, what's that? A scare card that might make a straight? Wtf! And now the board pairs on the river? Well, fuck it. He probably shouldn't have been in this hand so what the hell....."

Yeah basically, that is my thinking sometimes. If there isn't a name for this syndrome, we should come up with one. Let's call it "tilting." Don't think I've ever heard anyone use that one before. ;)

Seriously, though. Thanks guys for the input.

Remember man, we can only talk about it because we suffer from it ourselves. At present time it's definitely single my biggest leak.

I don't know if I'd just call it tilt though. I think for me it comes from an over-developed sense of justice, i.e if someone plays like a retard, they don't 'deserve' my money. While this may be true, I'm also a fucking retard if I can't stop thinking like that and yet continue to play poker nonetheless.

This is NOT a just game in the short term. Only the long :)

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rowhousepd

.... Well if you're going to play like a passive little fish here's my second barrel, and here's my third! Enjoy that! I can't wait until you show me your TPBK or middle pair on the river and I will have made me you feel like a donk. Ha. Can't wait. Oh, shit, what's that? A scare card that might make a straight? Wtf! And now the board pairs on the river? Well, fuck it. He probably shouldn't have been in this hand so what the hell....."
.

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LM(f)AO, had me in tears.

Anytime. ;)