Passive with Big pairs

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06-30-2010, 07:28 PM
Donachello

Passive with Big pairs

It's been a while since I put up a hand and I basically just wanted to check my line on these two hands. Actually, I just realized upon further viewing of the HH that they are against the same villain. He is a 18/9/3.8 with a 4% 3bet and is multitabling.

H1:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($5.43)
MP2 ($2.49)
CO ($3.28)
Hero (Button) ($5)
SB ($0.64)
BB ($5.48)
UTG ($9.43)
UTG+1 ($4.76)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif
UTG calls $0.05, 4 folds, Hero bets $0.25, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20

Flop: ($0.57) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.35, UTG raises to $0.80, Hero calls $0.45

Turn: ($2.17) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $1.90, Hero calls $1.90

River: ($5.97) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $3.42, Hero calls $2.05 (All-In)

Total pot: $10.07 | Rake: $0.67

This was my first bigger pot against this player and was early on in the session so at the time I treated him like any other TAGG reg. I don't see any point in raising on any street as I don't see him continuing to a raise with many hands except sets and perhaps overpairs with a heart. However, being that he limp called, his range is more weighted towards sets and SCs. For all I know he could have a hand like 89s and be thinking that I am chasing a flush with Ahx. Regardless, I'm never folding with the Ah before the river and once we get to the river I could still be ahead of a ton of his range as I have shown absolutely no strength up to this point. I feel like this is one of those spots where any aggression from me will narrow his range to only better hands as I have the nut flush blocker. Thoughts?

H2:
Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (5 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($5.24)
SB ($5)
BB ($3.81)
UTG ($10.88)
MP ($2.08)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif
UTG bets $0.10, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.45, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.35

Flop: ($0.97) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $0.97, Hero calls $0.97

Turn: ($2.91) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

River: ($2.91) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero checks

Total pot: $2.91 | Rake: $0.19

Given the last hand I feel like I could have bet the river maybe although I'm not thrilled about the spade completing, though I guess it'd be reasonable to bet/call here since he had seemingly tried to rep a flush before(hand above). The rest I feel is standard but again I could be wrong.
06-30-2010, 07:39 PM
littleogre

don't like hand 1 at all the board is way to wet to be slow playing an over pair.
Hand 2 you really need to bet the turn after they check
06-30-2010, 08:26 PM
daven

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

don't like hand 1 at all the board is way to wet to be slow playing an over pair.
Hand 2 you really need to bet the turn after they check

level? both hands look fine to me
06-30-2010, 08:33 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by daven

level?

http://img808.imageshack.us/img808/5...5607041423.jpg

both hands also look fine to me
06-30-2010, 09:25 PM
Fnord

Hand 1 I'd get it in on the turn or whatever I think is going to win the max against KK/QQ/JJ. Do you think he'll call the rest on the turn (don't think he can fold a Kh or Qh here) or putting it in on the river more often?
07-01-2010, 12:33 AM
littleogre

Calling down is really bad. in hand 1. Your better of folding or raising. I guess it turned out ok as villain put us all in on the river. I'm just curious if op bets or checks behind if villain checks the river? If he plans on checking behind if villain checks the river. Ie playing scared i think he is playing bad. My main point is his hand is strong enough that he should want to get all the money in the middle and he should be glad to do so. I'm just not sure that calling down is the way to do that. Even though it did work out in this instance
07-01-2010, 01:30 PM
Fnord

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

Calling down is really bad. in hand 1. Your better of folding or raising.

So Fold > Call?
07-02-2010, 03:57 AM
littleogre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

So Fold > Call?

In hand 1 yes. You really need a strong read on villain in this spot. If he is the type to likely have a set or a flush when he raises i would call the flop then fold the turn. Clearly you are getting odds to call and chase your nut flush. However on the turn he bets to big for you to chase. If however you think he is capable of raising draws a lot on the flop then i see no reason not to raise. I'm not that great at reading aggr factor but a 3.8 is pretty passive? So he's likely to have a flush when he re raises you on the flop. It's an easy call though due to implied odds. If we add semi bluffs and hands like JJQQKK to his range then raising the turn or flop are both good. I'm open minded though and would like to hear a good argument for just calling down.
07-02-2010, 05:31 AM
Fnord

YouTube - Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up

...never gonna fold this.
07-02-2010, 10:28 AM
Donachello

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

I'm open minded though and would like to hear a good argument for just calling down.

Because by calling I allow an aggro villain to keep his range as wide as possible which does two things. Acts as a bluff catcher with a redraw to the nuts, and value towns villain when he overplays his overpairs and Khx Qhx hands. fwiw I almost never put him on a flush here because I don't see him playing a non nut flush like this.
07-02-2010, 04:23 PM
supa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

YouTube - Rick Astley - Never Gonna Give You Up

...never gonna fold this.

Rick Astley + Nirvana - Never Gonna Give Your ...

...not when we got teen spirit
07-02-2010, 08:36 PM
shallam

Hand number one -- unfortunate but reasonable. I'm guessing you lost to a flush or a straight and I agree that you can't fold before the river for those bets. Maybe you can let go on river. Probably not.

Hand number two -- I probably would have folded to the monster flop bet. The vast majority of the time your opp will have an A and you are drawing VERY slim.
07-03-2010, 02:56 PM
Outlaw

H1- I like the way you played this.

H2- Bet the river for value- 66-QQ will pay you off.
07-03-2010, 03:29 PM
surviva316

Quote:

Originally Posted by Outlaw

H2- Bet the river for value- 66-QQ will pay you off.

vbetting the river seems too thin. he'll have about as many oddly played weak aces and rivered flushes as 66-99/JJ-QQ, and when you account for the fact that he doesn't always play JJ-QQ this way (i wouldn't expect villain to play preflop OR postflop very much like this), and that he'll fold 66-99 non-negligible amount of the time, and that he'll bluff raise some %age of the time, it ends up not making it worth it.

one of the adv. of position is being able to close out the betting action, and this seems like a good time to take adv of that
07-03-2010, 10:35 PM
Outlaw

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

vbetting the river seems too thin. he'll have about as many oddly played weak aces and rivered flushes as 66-99/JJ-QQ, and when you account for the fact that he doesn't always play JJ-QQ this way (i wouldn't expect villain to play preflop OR postflop very much like this), and that he'll fold 66-99 non-negligible amount of the time, and that he'll bluff raise some %age of the time, it ends up not making it worth it.

one of the adv. of position is being able to close out the betting action, and this seems like a good time to take adv of that

Doesn't seem that thin at all to me.. bluff raising is not that common at micros
07-06-2010, 04:17 PM
dranger7070

Betting the river in hand 2 is kind of spewy. FD came in, he doesn't always call with the hands you want to get value from and its highly unlikely he folds Ax
07-06-2010, 05:55 PM
Icanhastreebet

I bet like 1/4 pot on river on hand 2
07-06-2010, 06:11 PM
Donachello

Thanks for the responses guys.
@littleogre. Had he checked the river in H1 I would certainly bet.
@Outlaw and surviva. Given that he showed up in H1 with T8s. I think I prefer checking the river in H2 as I feel like he could indeed be possible of shoving his entire range. I won the second hand as well vs his QQ which may very well have called a 1/4 potsized bet as yaawn suggested but I feel like he may ship the rest of his range and I don't think I can call a raise.