overpair 5nl

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06-13-2010, 12:44 PM
philly and the phanatics

overpair 5nl

Ok so villain is 22/5

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($2.35)
BB ($5.39)
UTG ($3.05)
UTG+1 ($5.60)
MP1 ($1.75)
MP2 ($5.21)
Hero (MP3) ($4.93)
CO ($5.04)
Button ($3.02)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
4 folds, Hero bets $0.17, CO calls $0.17, 1 fold, SB calls $0.15, BB calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.68) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB checks, Hero bets $0.68, CO calls $0.68, 2 folds

Turn: ($2.04) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.02, CO raises to $4.19 (All-In)

ok so i have JJ-99,77,55,22,A9s,86s,A9o in his range against which i have 33.33 % equity against. And i only need 30% for it to be a call. However my problem is, should i really keep a9 in his range? if you make it only 9 combos of a9 (as opposed to 12), my equity shrinks to 29%, making this ev- and obviously as i drop a9 combos my equity plummets.
06-13-2010, 01:47 PM
EasyPoker

What about the "fuck you" part of his range? Add more hands and Your equity will increase...you've only considered the value part of his range here. That said, I can't see a nit jamming with tptk...

I guess my action here would depend on what I'd seen him showdown with before + reads on him...How does he perceive your range?
06-13-2010, 01:57 PM
Imthenewfish

Why do we mash pot on the flop lol??
06-13-2010, 02:04 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

What about the "fuck you" part of his range? Add more hands and Your equity will increase...you've only considered the value part of his range here. That said, I can't see a nit jamming with tptk...

I guess my action here would depend on what I'd seen him showdown with before + reads on him...How does he perceive your range?

22/5 does not = nit. but i dont have any reads on him outside of "he likes to play suited connectors ip". My range at this time is missed broadways and overpairs, but i am not sure if someone that limps like this is paying enough attention to realize that. I dont see him jamming anything but value here really, maybe if you say he is bluffing 2% of the time, i still barely have enough equity with 9 a9's in his range.
06-13-2010, 02:06 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

Why do we mash pot on the flop lol??

a9, jts, 9ts, 8ts, j9s, 68s, 88 all give me value here
06-13-2010, 02:11 PM
Imthenewfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

a9, jts, 9ts, 8ts, j9s, 68s, 88 all give me value here

So we b/f the entire pot for value against draws 4 handed?
06-13-2010, 02:13 PM
philly and the phanatics

yea you want to let them draw for free? only thing thats beating me is sets, jj , and maybe 79s. Also if one of them calls a 1/2 pot bet than the others have great odds to chase
06-13-2010, 02:14 PM
EasyPoker

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

22/5 does not = nit.

I suppose not, but the fact that he raises so infreq. preflop surely must mean that if he's jamming then it won't be with any less than two pair, like...he must know what to put his money in with is what I mean.

Anyway, I don't *know* I'm just hypothesizing.
06-13-2010, 02:16 PM
Imthenewfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

yea you want to let them draw for free? only thing thats beating me is sets, jj , and maybe 79s. Also if one of them calls a 1/2 pot bet than the others have great odds to chase

No I want to give them the an amount to call that they'll call often, but isn't profitable. Give us stats on how they play if you have a read thats telling you that theres a station among them. Players shouldn't often be turning their busted draws into bluffs at this level, so I don't think you have to bet more to price out bluff outs
06-13-2010, 02:19 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by EasyPoker

I suppose not, but the fact that he raises so infreq. preflop surely must mean that if he's jamming then it won't be with any less than two pair.
Anyway, I don't *know* I'm just hypothesizing.

looking at my pt3 he has an afq of 66 so while he is passive pre he is actually pretty agressive postflop. although in fairness i had not looked at this during the hand and should assume he is pretty passive and not doing this with less than two pair.
06-13-2010, 02:19 PM
Imthenewfish

I don't think I'm so much looking for value in betting this spot, but more to just pick up the dead money in the center. I would scale down the sizing and do it with a large % of my range so it has to work less frequently to show profit
06-13-2010, 02:20 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

No I want to give them the an amount to call that they'll call often, but isn't profitable. Give us stats on how they play if you have a read thats telling you that theres a station among them. Players shouldn't often be turning their busted draws into bluffs at this level, so I don't think you have to bet more to price out bluff outs

who said anything about betting more to price bluffs out?

and a psb is something they will call often but isnt profitable. however anything less, like i explained, and then i risk giving one of them good odds to call
06-13-2010, 02:23 PM
Imthenewfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

who said anything about betting more to price bluffs out?

and a psb is something they will call often but isnt profitable. however anything less, like i explained, and then i risk giving one of them good odds to call

Pretty hard to give them great odds to call on the flop.
06-13-2010, 02:24 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

I don't think I'm so much looking for value in betting this spot, but more to just pick up the dead money in the center.

Yeah and that makes absolutely no sense.
06-13-2010, 02:27 PM
philly and the phanatics

if i bet 30c, and the other 2 call then he has to call 30 cents to win a 1.70 pot, idk what you are talking about not being able togive them good odds
06-13-2010, 02:27 PM
Imthenewfish

Well do we feel comfortable barreling here
06-13-2010, 02:29 PM
Imthenewfish

and betting $0.50 doesn't give them good odds to draw if you don't assume they all hit the flop and are drawing to the same straights
06-13-2010, 02:30 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

and betting $0.50 doesn't give them good odds to draw if you don't assume they all hit the flop and are drawing to the same straights

i dont assume that, but they could have a9, 88, and draws like i said ldfo
06-13-2010, 02:31 PM
Imthenewfish

A9 and 88 need really good odds to draw here lol
06-13-2010, 02:32 PM
philly and the phanatics

what are you talking about, i have a really high cbet, if someoen with my cbet % cbet me i would call with 88 or a9 all day
06-13-2010, 02:35 PM
Imthenewfish

yeah A9 is std to expect them to continue, but if they raise you flop bet what's their range? does it consist of A9 if you have a high cbet? how often are you getting bet off your hand on the flop if you have a high cbet, or are you trying to just get the money in?
06-13-2010, 02:36 PM
Penneywize

Guys, IRC is that way ------------->
06-13-2010, 02:37 PM
Imthenewfish

we're in IRC
06-13-2010, 03:13 PM
JKDS

I think A9 is aiming to call down alot. Imo you have to have seen him do this before with a bad hand in order to make it a call. I didnt read the 20 posts after the OP cuz theyre lol, so if you said hes done this alot then easy call...otherwise its probably a kickthepuppy fold.
06-13-2010, 03:32 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKDS

I think A9 is aiming to call down alot. Imo you have to have seen him do this before with a bad hand in order to make it a call. I didnt read the 20 posts after the OP cuz theyre lol, so if you said hes done this alot then easy call...otherwise its probably a kickthepuppy fold.

ktpf it is then, thanks jkds
06-13-2010, 04:18 PM
cleanup.that

Quote:

Originally Posted by Imthenewfish

Why do we mash pot on the flop lol??

With reads and against badies its fine. I Always look to get the max from these type of players and I don't worry too much about them having me beat when they are just calling down with worse so often . Pot, pot, shove is a very viable line at the micros against certain villains even if it is thin.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($25)
Hero (BB) ($30.03)
UTG ($26.49)
MP ($25)
CO ($26.48)
Button ($53.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif
3 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, Hero bets $1.70, Button calls $1.45, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.65) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3.10, Button calls $3.10

Turn: ($9.85) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $7.10, Button calls $7.10

River: ($24.05) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $18.13 (All-In), Button calls $18.13

Total pot: $60.31 | Rake: $3

Results:
Button had 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (one pair, tens).
Hero had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $57.31
06-13-2010, 05:40 PM
Imthenewfish

Quote:

Originally Posted by cleanup.that

With reads and against badies its fine. I Always look to get the max from these type of players and I don't worry too much about them having me beat when they are just calling down with worse so often . Pot, pot, shove is a very viable line at the micros against certain villains even if it is thin.

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($25)
Hero (BB) ($30.03)
UTG ($26.49)
MP ($25)
CO ($26.48)
Button ($53.30)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif
3 folds, Button calls $0.25, SB calls $0.15, Hero bets $1.70, Button calls $1.45, 1 fold

Flop: ($3.65) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $3.10, Button calls $3.10

Turn: ($9.85) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $7.10, Button calls $7.10

River: ($24.05) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $18.13 (All-In), Button calls $18.13

Total pot: $60.31 | Rake: $3

Results:
Button had 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (one pair, tens).
Hero had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (one pair, tens).
Outcome: Hero won $57.31

I'm fine with those sizes, I just don't usually bet the entire pot unless i need to to get it in by the river or it's a really wet board. 70-90% is usually as large as i value bet on the flop unless its really wet
06-13-2010, 05:49 PM
shallam

I think you are beat.

If your stack was shorter I might bother trying to figure out if you win often enough to make a call worthwhile, but you have too much behind for for that to even be close. He wants your whole stack, don't give it to him.

I think you are beat about 80% of the time, your opponent will show up with overpairs, sets, two pairs, even the oddball straight. Once in a while you'll be up against hands like 99, 88, Ac9c, AcKc, 6c8c, 6c4c. It really doesn't make sense to play these hand this way. It makes total sense to play a set this way.

If I had to pick one I'd pick a set of 9s.

BTW, you made some very large bets post flop but smallish bets preflop. Why did you choose those bet sizes ?
06-13-2010, 05:56 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by shallam

I think you are beat.

If your stack was shorter I might bother trying to figure out if you win often enough to make a call worthwhile, but you have too much behind for for that to even be close. He wants your whole stack, don't give it to him.

I think you are beat about 80% of the time, your opponent will show up with overpairs, sets, two pairs, even the oddball straight. Once in a while you'll be up against hands like 99, 88, Ac9c, AcKc, 6c8c, 6c4c. It really doesn't make sense to play these hand this way. It makes total sense to play a set this way.

If I had to pick one I'd pick a set of 9s.

BTW, you made some very large bets post flop but smallish bets preflop. Why did you choose those bet sizes ?

preflop cause thats my standard raise preflop....postflop because there were so many people i wanted to a. fold out some crap hands that may hit on later streets like broadways b. price out draws, and c. get value from a9 type hands.

turn i agree i am def beat and its a fold imo.
06-13-2010, 08:03 PM
shallam

Just a note on bet sizing. If you make pot sized bets as a matter of routine you quickly find that you are putting your entire stack risk very quickly. Here is a little math.

Let's say you have 15-20 BB as a result of preflop action. So you bet 15-20 on the flop, get called, making the pot 45-60. You pb the turn and now you have 135-180. You pb the river your entire 200 BB deep stack is now at risk. So that's cool if you have a set or something but just a pair ?

Contrast that to making some adjustments for the pot size. You pb the flop, 2/3p the turn and 1/2p the river. Now you are around 15 + 20 + 35 = 70, painful but not catastrophic should you lose. Also note that even primary draws (4 to 1) are getting the wrong immediate odds to chase with just a half pot bet (3 to 1).
06-14-2010, 11:40 PM
LAPRAS

I make it a touch less on the flop.

Turbomuck turn, bad/passive opponents rarely call flop/raise turn with <1pair.
06-18-2010, 02:12 PM
Outlaw

I don't think folding is god awful, you are getting a good price though. I don't think these situations are where we make or lose money anyways.. flip a coin and move on. Personally, I always lean towards calling in these spots.. you can't win by folding.