Flush facing 3bet

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05-20-2010, 03:56 AM
supa

Flush facing 3bet

This is exactly the kind of hand thats killing my game.Still no stats until I can figure out my poker tracker.Working on that.

PokerStars Game #44351086608: Hold'em No Limit ($0.01/$0.02 USD) - 2010/05/19 22:11:36 PT [2010/05/20 1:11:36 ET]
Table 'Agematsu II' 9-max Seat #5 is the button
Seat 1: rober77o ($5.45 in chips)
Seat 2: odrr101 ($3.44 in chips)
Seat 3: Pérette ($1.41 in chips)
Seat 4: Ague ($4.66 in chips)
Seat 5: SUPAHAOLE666 ($9.81 in chips)
Seat 6: songokhú ($1.11 in chips)
Seat 7: KarrickB ($1.04 in chips)
Seat 9: Komponello ($0.66 in chips)
songokhú: posts small blind $0.01
KarrickB: posts big blind $0.02
DustyIuck: sits out
*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to SUPAHAOLE666 [Kd Jc]
Komponello: folds
rober77o: folds
odrr101: calls $0.02
Pérette: folds
Ague: folds
SUPAHAOLE666: raises $0.06 to $0.08
songokhú: folds
KarrickB: calls $0.06
odrr101: calls $0.06
*** FLOP *** [3s 3c 8c]
KarrickB: checks
odrr101: checks
SUPAHAOLE666: checks
*** TURN *** [3s 3c 8c] [5c]
KarrickB: checks
odrr101: bets $0.06
SUPAHAOLE666: calls $0.06
KarrickB: calls $0.06
*** RIVER *** [3s 3c 8c 5c] [6c]
KarrickB: bets $0.10
odrr101: calls $0.10
SUPAHAOLE666: raises $0.30 to $0.40
KarrickB: raises $0.30 to $0.70

????????????????????

PS. Still can't get the HH converter to work.
05-20-2010, 06:32 AM
Horace

Why raise with nothing? That many people, surely someone hit something on that board.

Maybe you should have tested water on flop?
05-20-2010, 07:19 AM
littleogre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace

Why raise with nothing? That many people, surely someone hit something on that board.

Maybe you should have tested water on flop?

raising the turn with air when it's checked around on the flop can be very +ev I wouldn't do it on this board though.
05-20-2010, 08:22 AM
Santo2True

he's talking about the river.. hero raised the river here...
not sure if you are confusing the statement or just making your own statement

however.. i don't raise here, just flat since the bet is small but chances are we are beat
05-20-2010, 08:25 AM
Keith

I converted the hand to make it easier to read

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
UTG+1 ($5.45)
MP1 ($3.44)
MP2 ($1.41)
CO ($4.66)
Hero (Button) ($9.81)
SB ($1.11)
BB ($1.04)
UTG ($0.66)
Preflop: Hero is Button with K:diamond:, J:club:
2 folds, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.08, 1 fold, BB calls $0.06, MP1 calls $0.06
Flop: ($0.25) 3:spade:, 3:club:, 8:club: (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 checks, Hero checks
Turn: ($0.25) 5:club: (3 players)
BB checks, MP1 bets $0.06, Hero calls $0.06, BB calls $0.06
River: ($0.43) 6:club: (3 players)
BB bets $0.10, MP1 calls $0.10, Hero raises to $0.40, BB raises to $0.70
05-20-2010, 09:13 AM
Keith

Quote:

This is exactly the kind of hand thats killing my game.Still no stats until I can figure out my poker tracker.Working on that.

How is just posting a hand going to help you improve. Go through and give the reasons for your actions on each street.why you're raising pre , why you check behind on the flop, why you call the turn and why you raised the river. You'll get more from it ,if you find out what you were thinking is right or wrong , rather than whether you should just call or shove over the river or whinging about getting beaten.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Horace

Why raise with nothing? That many people, surely someone hit something on that board.
Maybe you should have tested water on flop?

Not sure that i like the way that this is worded.If its the river he doesnt have nothing but then again he doesnt have that great a hand either
05-20-2010, 11:44 AM
kmind

It doesn't really matter what happens. I feel like their river play is so bad that I can actually fold it. However, because they're so bad we might actually have to call.
05-20-2010, 12:17 PM
mrchevyceleb

On the river you have the 4th nuts and TBH I think you're beat but I would call I think rather than raise. The only reason to raise is if you think they will call you with worse flushes. I suppose you could raise as a semi-bluff to blow out a Qc but that's about the only card you're going to blow out if you turn your hand into a bluff (Ac and Kc won't fold). Also, it's really not +EV to be bluffing fish at this level. So call and play a small pot with a small hand.

Oh and somebody mentioned c-bet bluff this flop. This is a horrible flop texture to cbet bluff especially into 2 opponents.

As played, however, I would call his 3-bet because of price. You are getting ridiculous pot odds to call so you can't really fold for .30 more.
05-20-2010, 12:18 PM
xpaand

This kind of marginal holding pre SD still confuses me, but I think I agree with kmind. At $2NL I think it's ok to call with a Jack high flush as I can see many fish shoving with any club and even a straight.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think unless you have stats to justify that he isn't a moron, then you can call that at 2NL (especially cause of his bad bet sizing leaving him with $.24). But if he has a very low river bet percentage or super high W$SD/low WtSD over hundreds of hands, then you should fold. I would also not call if the amount to call was a lot greater than the ~5.5 to 1 pot odds you're getting.
05-20-2010, 12:55 PM
Ragnar4

Hero has to at least call. That much is easy to identify. Hero played the hand horrible. Thats also pretty easy to identify.

What isn't easy to identify, here is what the correct action as played is:

Fold PF
Bet flop!
As played call turn if opponent is incapable of folding, raise if opponent is capapble.
as played call river

IMO.
05-20-2010, 01:33 PM
littleogre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Santo2True

he's talking about the river.. hero raised the river here...
not sure if you are confusing the statement or just making your own statement

however.. i don't raise here, just flat since the bet is small but chances are we are beat

Sorry bad eyes and have hard time reading unconverted hands. Could have sworn that op was the one that bet the turn.
05-20-2010, 01:47 PM
xpaand

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ragnar4

Hero has to at least call. That much is easy to identify. Hero played the hand horrible. Thats also pretty easy to identify.

What isn't easy to identify, here is what the correct action as played is:

Fold PF
Bet flop!
As played call turn if opponent is incapable of folding, raise if opponent is capapble.
as played call river

IMO.

Just wondering if you could explain why. KJo on the button with one limper is ok for a raise no? Obviously depends on his stats, but in position, it won't be too bad to play imo.

And on the flop, isn't it dangerous at these stakes to bet the flop in this situation cause of all the fishy slowplays?
05-20-2010, 01:53 PM
mrchevyceleb

"Just wondering if you could explain why. KJo on the button with one limper is ok for a raise no? Obviously depends on his stats, but in position, it won't be too bad to play imo."

Yep, KJo is a fine isolation against one limper, you are way ahead of his limping range

"And on the flop, isn't it dangerous at these stakes to bet the flop in this situation cause of all the fishy slowplays?"

these low card 2 flush boards are not good for a cbet bluff, esp, 3-way, so yes you're right, but not because of slowplaying
05-20-2010, 01:56 PM
Ragnar4

It's fine to isolate if you think your opponent is capapble of a fold.

Also: I misread, I thought Hero was calling a raise, not isolating.. my bad.
05-20-2010, 02:58 PM
sven00100

The only thing I see here is a river bet I don't like at all.. aside from debating other streets, I don't see us getting value out of making the river bet.. we aren't likely to get called unless they beat us.

I definitely wouldn't be calling with trips or a straight, or a T high flush there. As played I'm thinking we can fold the river.. but He priced it so nicely, as played I'm not sure. Also he has ~nothing behind his stack after that reraise.

If I'm holding a Jack high flush here, I'm flat calling this river almost always to that small $.10 bet, rather than raising, which I expect will almost always be even or negative eV.
05-20-2010, 03:02 PM
Donachello

Bet flop. River should be a flat and as played fold.
05-20-2010, 03:22 PM
littleogre

ok now that i know what's going i would fold the turn. I know if we say all our outs are good it's a call but if you factor in the rare but significant times that someone has the ace of clubs it's a fold or atleast it's close
05-20-2010, 03:52 PM
supa

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith_MM

How is just posting a hand going to help you improve. Go through and give the reasons for your actions on each street.why you're raising pre , why you check behind on the flop, why you call the turn and why you raised the river. You'll get more from it ,if you find out what you were thinking is right or wrong , rather than whether you should just call or shove over the river or whinging about getting beaten.

Not sure that i like the way that this is worded.If its the river he doesnt have nothing but then again he doesnt have that great a hand either

Yes!!!Exactly!!!
The root of the problem here is that I have no idea why I did what on which street.I started to post this hand with all intentions of explaining my actions but found that I was only trying to defend my horrible post flop play.Which I think would be detrimental because it wouldn't be truthful.

So you sir hit the nail on the head.I need to know why I'm making what choices or get the hell out of the hand.Lesson learned.

I thought I came to this site to learn how to play poker when what need to do first is learn how to learn to play poker.Maybe someone can write an article on that.Maybe someday I'll have enough knowledge to do it myself.I'm not goin anywhere for a while.

This site rules!