NLHE Theory + Practice: Week 3.

This week's discussion will be on the next section running from pages 45-56. This is a short section that deals pretty much exclusively with bet sizing. I'd urge all beginners partcipating in these threads to really give this a good read and say what they think or ask any questions. It's a short, concise section, and so should be quite easy for us to analysis without drifting from topic to topic.

A ton of the time at the micros and the games you guys play, people will be such stations with draws and top pair etc alike that folding out too much of their range is not usually a concern (unless we overbet rediculously.) A lot of the time, your job is to work exactly how much of a station your villains are. and hecne how much you can get away with betting to exploit this before they start to make correct folds. I see a ton of bet sizing errors in some threads in the BC so I think everyone could benifit a lot in taking part this week.

Get to work, and hopefully we can have a bit better of a discussion this time. Please don't be afraid to ask whatever questions you have no matter how dumb you feel they sound; that's what this thread is here for! Myself and other regs will be on hand to keep this going and answer all questions as best as we can.

i've got to catch up and finish reading this section, but i know i will have some questions. I'll pot back soon as I finish. I think this will make for a great discusion.

Im not sure how I feel about this section..

On the one hand I can definitely appreciate the concept of proper bet sizing, and have recently discovered that I have a tendency to over bet and force villain to make a correct call (either from underestimating their intelligence, not thinking about the situation enough myself, or both).

On the other hand I feel like estimating expectation value based on multiple hands with different outs is too tricky to be able to do on the fly.. even with rough estimation. I mean even taking the simple example given you have to be fairly sure that hes drawing out, he's not going to call something that give incorrect odds for both draws, and hes going to call incorrect odds for the 4:1. How often are you going to know villain well enough to make such estimations?

I do agree with fatguy'06 that at microstakes, many players can have such a broad range of hands that it becomes difficult to know if they're drawing to a flush or a straight, with a low pair or simply slowplaying a TPTK. But sometimes you can pretty figure out with their betting/calling pattern in relation with the flop texture, especially with flush draws. On the other hand, very tight "rock"players will draw only with very strong draws, and in a sense become very predictable. I guess they are easy folds when they hit their draw because they rarely bluff (at microstakes of course). So you can pretty much avoid paying their " optimistic calls". I don't know if you guys agree with that ?

Reading this section, I realized that when the villain is on a draw, I tend to bet to much and I loose a lot of value. I tend to make them fold early and win the pot right there...cause I hate when they hit their draw... The idea of betting for maximum EV even if villain draw correctly on you is very eye opening for me.

But what about if you have TPTK, you are fairly sure that villain is on a draw ? You want to control the pot, but at the same time want to get some value. I know those hands are tricky, but in the context of this section of the book, how does it apply ?

not a heap to add here, really. i understand the theoretical underpinning of it all but i didn't really grasp some of the math. i like how the examples started with perfect information, to pretty good information, to broad information etc in order to show how you need to bet a size which maximises EV against villain's whole range and not just bet cos you have top pair jack kicker and dont want him to draw or some such narrow-minded kind of logic. i'll re-read it now and try to work out how they got to/worked out the math equations to prove the theories.

Quote:

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But what about if you have TPTK, you are fairly sure that villain is on a draw ? You want to control the pot, but at the same time want to get some value. I know those hands are tricky, but in the context of this section of the book, how does it apply?

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Okay, just to correct a little bit of your thought process here. Instead of saying "we're fairly sure" villain is on a draw, it's better to think like: "Villain's range is comprised of a lot of draws and some other stuff i.e weaker top pair, 2nd pair, the odd slow played set." It's very hard to know exactly what a villain has most of the time, so we alwaysn need to be thinking about his range of hands, we can work out how likely it is that he actually holds such and such based on this range, but we still have to play against the range as a whole.

So if this villain has a lot of draws in his range and our hand stands to be good the vast majority of the time against his range as a whole, there's really not much need in pot controlling. We, in this scenario, don't want to miss one street of value because betting so +EV on every street (unless a lot of draws complete) and checking to pot control is really bad here because we allow all those draws a free card and fail to get a street of value vs his calling range, which we are well ahead of.

Our job in this hand you've descirbed is to bet an amount that will yield the biggest profit vs his range as a whole and not worry about ever controlling the size of the pot. Since so much of villain's range given your read will be a draw of some sort, we need to figure out mainly how he plays those. If he calls a psb with draws, but no more than this then pot it. Sure we'll fold out the odd 2nd pair, but our bet will extract easily the maximum value beacause the villain has so many more combos of draws than 2nd pair. He also wont fold the tp weaker kicker hands for a psb either.

Don't ever feel like you need to pot control (or do anything else) simply based on the exact strength of your own hand. Sure all we have is one pair, but in the situation you outlined our TPTK is a huge hand for extracting value vs his weak/drawy range and we cannot afford to check at any point. There are simply not enough stronger hands in his range that we need to worry about pot controlling against. We just need to find the best bet size in this case to make the most from his draws since they make up such a large chunk of his range based on your read.

Hope that makes sense.

i think these theory discussions would be helped along and get much more interest in the forums if some people posted hands relevant to the week's concepts. also helps translate the theoretical understanding into practical implementation at the tables. thoughts on this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by fatguy'06

Im not sure how I feel about this section..

On the one hand I can definitely appreciate the concept of proper bet sizing, and have recently discovered that I have a tendency to over bet and force villain to make a correct call (either from underestimating their intelligence, not thinking about the situation enough myself, or both).

On the other hand I feel like estimating expectation value based on multiple hands with different outs is too tricky to be able to do on the fly.. even with rough estimation. I mean even taking the simple example given you have to be fairly sure that hes drawing out, he's not going to call something that give incorrect odds for both draws, and hes going to call incorrect odds for the 4:1. How often are you going to know villain well enough to make such estimations?

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Estimating expected value based on on multiple hands with different outs is very tricky and not usually something you should be trying to do to any exact degree in the heat of a session. Ranges will be more complicated than this because you wont know villain well enough to reduce his range to only two types of hand usually. The best thing to take from this little section of the book you're reffering to, is to practice working out different odds that draws will have vs you and how much you need to bet to deny these odds. This will give you a feel for how to play vs those sorts of hands, and how to tailor bet sizing in general on very drawy boards like the one in Sklansky's example; where your opponents range is comprised of draws for the most part.

Remember though, often draws will be a much smaller chunk of someone's range so keep this in mind and also analyse spots where you are extracting mainly from weaker made hands to get a feel for this too. Everything depends on your opponents tendencies and it will be very rare to find situations where you can just say "ok he either has this draw or that draw and nothing else." but these examples are there to help you practice how to do your analysis in these spots and gain a better feel for playing against differently weighted ranges. The author isn't suggesting you should commonly be able to stick your opponent on this narrow and simple of a range to play against.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rpm

i think these theory discussions would be helped along and get much more interest in the forums if some people posted hands relevant to the week's concepts. also helps translate the theoretical understanding into practical implementation at the tables. thoughts on this?

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Think this is a good idea. i'll start. Here's some analysis of bet sizing in a hand i played the other day. Have a look at the hand first and see what you think after you've read the villain description then look at my analysis and compare.

Villain

Villain is 73/26 and limp calls constantly preflop. He seems fishy and stationy and unable to fold much in general.

The Hand

No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($100)
UTG ($100)
MP ($150.75)
CO ($128.30)
Hero (Button) ($138.40)
SB ($100)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 9:club:, 9:spade:
2 folds, CO calls $1, Hero bets $5, 2 folds, CO calls $4

Flop: ($11.50) 8:diamond:, 9:diamond:, J:spade: (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $8, CO calls $8

Turn: ($27.50) 5:heart: (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $23, CO calls $23

River: ($73.50) 5:diamond: (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $58, CO calls $58

Total pot: $189.50

Analysis

Preflop: 5x is a decent isolation size vs this guy because he'll continue with so many worse pairs etc - basically a range that I am doing very well against. This had been my standard iso size vs him so felt he'd continue wide to it, thus i am able to build the pot quickly in position vs a weak range that he'll make a ton of mistakes with.

Flop: Ok so villains range obviously include a ton of draws here, some 2 pairs, other worse made hands that will call a flop bet and a few beter hand though not many, and we'll still have some equity vs a straight. So since villain wont be foliding any draw, pair + draw or worse made hand like 2 pair or top pair to a large bet I'd like to see myself et more in the range of $10-$11 here, to exploit his mistake even more. I think my flop sizing is too small.

Turn: I'm obviously very happy with this turn card and want to keep betting n amout that will cause villain to make the ibggest mistake with his range. Ok so villain's range is comprised of what we thought he'd call the flop bet with, so basically a ton of draws still, some 2 pairs, some top pairs, some pair + draws and possibly some straightsd although this is less likely when he doesn't raise the flop. Given his preflop stats he doesn't have 88 or JJ much since he usually raises these preflop. So now we bet $23 into $27.50, which I think is a good size vs this guy's range since he's stationy, wont fold draws and wont fold a ton of the made hands or pair + draws either. This large bet allows us to bet more on the river by inflating the pot.

River: this is one of the best rivers in the deck, if he's just made a flush we're beating it. I think there's a decent chance he just leads this river with most good flushes here, but he certainly still can have a flush when he checks. I also want to get value from 2 pair, the odd straight and whatever single pair crap he can't let go of. I choose a bet size which is pretty damn big - 6/7ths of pot almost, but not so big that it will dsicourage stationy bad calls from top pair or 2 pair - which i feel he's likely to make. If he has a flush he obviously isn't folding to a shove, but since i think most of his range is weaker made hands at this point when he doesn't lead the river (stuff like JT AJ J9 etc) I want to find the bet size that earns a lot from flushes and straights which he wont ever fold for any price, but also causes him to make a huge mistake by calling with hands that are bluff catchers like AJ or J9.

So as you can see, I'm trying to play vs this stationy villain's range as a whole on each street. I think apart from the flop, the bets are sized well vs his range and I should just near pot the flop to maximise EV on later streets and exploit his mistakes more.

If anyone else wants to go ahead and post a hand with a stab at some bet sizing analysis that'd be swell.

Alright: villain is 42/1/2.6 (VPIP/PFR/Agg) I have a note on him saying that he has a lot of faith in midpairs

$0.01/$0.02 No Limit Holdem
PokerStars
7 Players
Hand Conversion Powered by weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG TiagoVL92 ($4.83)
UTG+1 notdice ($17.44)
MP Nemrid ($3)
CO G3nio ($5)
BTN inff2120 ($1.80)
SB Hero ($4.98)
BB viomp ($1.88)

Pre-Flop: ($0.03, 7 players) Hero is SB :jh: :ac:
4 folds, inff2120 calls $0.02, Hero raises to $0.10, 1 fold, inff2120 calls $0.08

Flop: :jd: :4d: :6h: ($0.22, 2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, inff2120 folds

Final Pot: $0.42

Hero wins $0.42 (net +$0.12)

inff2120 lost $0.10



With tptk I thought he would call with a flush draw, maybe hes on a straight draw, 4x, 6x, Jx or rags. I definitely want to take away his draw odds but to do that I only need to bet .06. I want to build the pot but not push him to fold.. based on this and his VPIP i figured a PSB would be ok. Could this be an instance where he simply flopped air?

I think I made the fold too easy a choice and should have bet somewhere closer to half pot encouraging him to chase a draw.

I doubt a player like this ever folds a draw to a psb, given how limpy/passive and stationy he looks. Your read that he doesn't like to fold with a pair or medicore piece of the board should also encourage you to bet more. I think the sizing is fine and he likely just had air.

If you're c-betting this spot with air yourself you can make it smallish i.e 1/2 pot since you don't think this guys is folding a 6 or 55 or 77 etc too much - therefore you'd want to bet as little as you can so that he still folds all of his air. Betting between 1/2 - 2/3rds pot is probably good for this purpose. It's okay to be totally unbalanced vs such a fish until he sees what you're doing.

edit: carrot said it better

i think that if villain was on a draw here with two Diamonds he'd call a PSB on the flop. Chances are he flopped nothing since he limped in and only flatted your raise it's not like that says he had anything to begin with as fishie as he is.
I think your line of thinking was correct and you got as much value as you could in this situation.

first thing i thought when i looked at your hand carroters was "god bet more on the flop vs this guy", which you pointed out was a mistake anyway. other than that i think all streets are good. something important to take from that hand imo, if you have a strong hand on a wet board against a weak player, your betsizes should be between 3/4 and full pot most of the time. because the wet board makes the equity of their calling range higher, because there are 8+ out draws to better hands. and thus bigger bets are required for their calls to be mistakes. say in carroters' hand the villain has JT, villain has 30% equity. whereas if the board came 952, he has villains range absolutely crushed and i'm guessing, unless he had a read that villain calls PSB's on all streets with any piece, he would lean towards betting like $7-9 on the flop. certainly less than 10 or 11 which was considered optimal when the board was wet and hit villain's calling range hard.

and fatguy, i think that flop bet is good. because the flop texture is such that there is only one broadway and two raggy cards, its a great flop to get value from middle pairs, QJ, KJ, plus the fact that there is a flushdraw and some suited connectors flopped a straight draw, and your villain likes to call lots, makes a close to potsize bet a good option here for both value against his pair hands, and charging the potential draws.

here's an interesting one in which i adjusted my betsizing down slightly on the turn because villain had less outs than he thought, and i didn't want to ruin the chance to stack villain on 7/46 rivers. (Sklansky talks about doing this in the chapter right? or did i read that somewhere else)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com
MP1 ($10.54)
MP2 ($4.33)
CO ($8.59)
Button ($28.43)
SB ($18.01)
Hero (BB) ($10.34)
UTG ($23.54)
Preflop: Hero is BB with A:diamond:, 4:diamond:
1 fold, MP1 bets $0.20, 1 fold, CO calls $0.20, Button calls $0.20, SB calls $0.15, Hero calls $0.10
Flop: ($1.14) 2:diamond:, 5:diamond:, 3:spade: (5 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.80, MP1 calls $0.80, 1 fold, Button calls $0.80, 1 fold
Turn: ($3.54) Q:club: (3 players)
Hero bets $2.20, 1 fold, Button calls $2.20
River: ($7.94) 10:club: (2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks
Total pot: $7.94 | Rake: $0.35

when he doesn't raise the flop, i'm pretty confident he does not have a set, so his range is like 66+, and a heap of FD's. when the turn is a Q, i cant see myself getting another street of value from 66-JJ, or A5 or whatever here, because my line is already looking strong and the Q is a deathcard for most of villain's range. so, realising i never get value from those hands anyway, i decided i had to bet to get value from weaker FD's, seeing as mid-pairs are probably folding on the turn and even moreso on the river if more paint falls. because i have a straight AND the nut flush draw, i decided to bet less than i typically would for pure value because it's more valuable keeping villain in the pot when he's usually drawing dead because i get paid off so well the 15% of the time we both hit that it's not worth blowing villain out of the pot. i checked the river because i think he never has any middle pairs anymore, and his range is like bricked FD's, and bricked 4x SD's, MAYBE a very rare poorly played set. all of this (bar the rare sets) folds to any bet, but might be bet when checked to. so i wanted to give him the chance to bluff. he had TdJd so it's a pity he rivered some showdown value.

Good hand rpm, I fully understand the concept in this context. Would you have played the hand quite differently in terms of bet sizing with Kd or Qd instead of having Ad, whitout the nut flush draw ?

not sure what you mean. if i had As4s (ie no flush draw at all) i would have bet the same or maybe 0.9 on the flop. then at least 8 or 9/10 of pot on turn for sure. because villain has so many flush draws in his range, these have decent equity against my hand compared to (for example) 35s and i would need to adjust my betsizing up because the smaller my bet, the less of a mistake it is for villain to call with his draw. however when i had the NFD accompanying my straight, i was still going to bet because there is a bucketload of value, and i want the pot to be big enough to get villain's stack in on the river. however i adjusted my betsizing down so as to induce a call from villain because he's drawing dead (as a guess) 90% of the time so i am making a mistake really if i bet full pot and make him fold a hand which he thinks has like 9-12 outs, which really has none. i have no idea how this guy plays, maybe he calls pot size bets on any street with any FD, in which case for sure betting pot on flop and turn is the best choice. but without such reads, my priority was to build the pot while not enticing him to make the correct play, which is folding. that took ages and i probably repeated myself 10 times. assignment time.

also villain had the false impression of implied odds, because if i had As4s and the flush completed, i was c/fing to all but the smallest of bets on the river, because i felt his range was so dominated by FD's (too passive a line for sets/straight/two pairs, and i doubt he has many middle PP's left when he calls the turn). that's why i didnt value bet the river, because i felt he had two non-paired diamonds a lot which never call a bet, so i wanted to give him the chance to bluff. but he rivered a pair and so bluffing became unattractive, as he now had a little bit of showdown value.

Sorry rpm, at first glance at the hand I did not realize you had flopped a straight and thought you had a flush draw + gutshot draw. That's why my question was confusing. Thanks for the complete answer.

@rpm.. great example.. to bad he didn't bet on the river, or else it could have been an even better pot. if you played the hand again would you bet the river the second time around? maybe like half pot or so for some more value hoping that a pair would call?

Im confused about the river check, I thought you said you never played him before so what made you think he would try and bluff the river?

i checked the river because i felt like he had two unpaired diamonds a lot, which would never call a bet, but might bet when checked to because villain realises he almost never wins if he checks behind with say, 6d7d, 7d8d etc. however i posted the hand mostly because the flop and turn were rare examples where i was thinking enough to tailor my betsize to what i thought villains range was and about how to maximise value against that range, rather than a standard 4/5 pot on flop and turn for value robot line i would take sometimes. i'm not saying i played the hand well, it's just one where i tried to consider the theory sklansky talks about in this chapter while i was playing. i don't know if i prefer betting small on the river or checking. a decent % of his missed flush draws have paired up on the turn or river, so maybe betting $4.5 or something may have been better.

This isn't really the issue here fatguy. The issue is nmore that there are just hardly any of made hand combos in villain's range sdtrong enough for him to call a river bet now that there are 2 over cards to his medium pairs and he has practically no 2 pair combos here. he can occassionally have a "slowplayed" set or some nonsense, but we can assume he bets this on the river himself when checked to for value, so we can then raise profitably and get a heap more money in than if the river went bet - call.

So if there's nothing that villain can call a river bet with in his range, we need to find another way of getting a chance to make some money. It doesn't really matter whetehr we don't know if villain will bluff the river often here because we do know that he wont call with worse often at all. Therefore, c/r is better than betting because we are targetting once again the proportion of his range that makes up by far the majority of his holdings and taking a line that maximises value vs this, and hecne his range as a whole. If ther was a Q on the flop instead of the turn for instance it's more likely villain holds top pair sometimes which will check back but call a river bet - hence we'd be more inclined to value bet here.

We do miss some value on this river from QdX and TdX which (EDIT) on second glance do make up a decent amount of his fd range. Betting the river may be slightly better without a read that he bluffs missed draws but i think it's close.

I think hero played this hand well and the only adjustment I'd make is perhaps bet a little more on the turn since all weak made hands are pretty much folding anyway to the chosen bet size, and I doubt the draws will fold to a bigger bet especially the fds, and there just aren't that many 4s in his range. Our huge implied odds vs the fds are a great reason not to force them out of the pot, but I don't feel a slightly bigger bet will ever do this. We're basically just maximising our value for the times he misses by betting more and perhaps making him feel more obliged to bluff some rivers if he's invested more monies.

Bump - anyone else got any thoughts, questions or more example hands to demonstrate any of these bet sizing concepts?

weird. i thought heaps of people seemed keen when spoon made the first post proposing this idea. oh well. i'm certainly benefiting from it.

Sorry I've been MIA guys. This week has been kind of crazy. I've had a shitton of work, family stuff, etc. I will be trying to add my thoughts soon. I'm really glad to see people are learning and I think others are hawking the thread without posting. I wish they would post but, meh, at least they're looking.

Keep up the good work guys.

sorry for being such a slacker - by i'll look for some hands to post in here over the weekend

So as promised, a couple hands which I've discussed with the IRC folks which helped me identify some bet sizing errors:

UTG is a potential whale, 80/70 over a very small 10 hand sample. His playing style seems to confirm that he's a bad player. MP seems fairly solid at 19/13.

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (5 handed) - iPoker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($0.37)
UTG ($10.82)
MP ($13.07)
Hero (Button) ($5.33)
SB ($4.96)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif
UTG bets $0.08, MP calls $0.08, Hero raises to $0.28, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.20, 1 fold

The decision to 3bet was fairly clear, to get value out of UTG and isolate him. About the sizing:

[11:57] kiwilandicMark:
1. we're likely to get value from UTG since he's such a whale, 2. since he's likely to call a lot but we don't reeeeally want MP in there we're wanting to bet bigger to chase him out (ie. it's gonna be tempting for him to call after UTG calls)

[12:05] Stax: An 80/70 (small sample), isn't going to differentiate between $0.28 and $0.35 or so here. Just get value while he wants to see a flop.

So consensus seems to be that I should have bet bigger for two reasons, UTG is a huge fish who will see a flop with the same frequency for a bigger bet, and we don't want to price in MP for a call.

Flop: ($0.70) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.70, 1 fold

Now here's a spot where even though he's a whale, I think betting pot was kind of meh because a smaller bet might increase our chances of getting called and it will still be easy to get stacks in the middle.

[12:06] Stax: I'd prob bet like $0.59 or something, because there are a fair amount of draws he will call with (QT, Q9, AQ, AT, T9, flush draws), and he certainly isn't folding a Kx, or QQ hand.

MP is 65/7, CO is 19/8.

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (6 handed) - iPoker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($4.04)
Hero (Button) ($6.97)
SB ($3.10)
BB ($2.15)
UTG ($4)
MP ($12.98)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif
1 fold, MP calls $0.04, CO bets $0.16, Hero calls $0.16, 2 folds, MP calls $0.12

Flop: ($0.54) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (3 players)
MP checks, CO checks, Hero bets $0.28, MP calls $0.28, 1 fold

[12:14] kiwilandicMark:Yeah I bet more on flop
[12:14] Stax:Yeah for sure. Co checks, so he rarely, if ever, has you beat here.. And MP is a huge fish that will call with a shitload of worse hands (9x, 88, Ax, T8, 86, flush draw, etc)

I think because the PFR-er was tight, it made me a bit tentative with the bet sizing. But I think indeed when he checks, it's because he's whiffed and I'm good most of the time here, and I should try to get value from the bad player in MP.

Turn: ($1.10) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.92, MP calls $0.92

Advice given was that I could go even closer to pot here. We're hoping that he completed a straight with the T, or that he has a 7x that he isn't folding. Sometimes T9.

River: ($2.94) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $2.94, 1 fold

Now the river PSB is what got the most berateaments out of all the hands I discussed on IRC today. I'll just copy paste:

[12:15] fat: river is a shovadoodle lDo
[12:15] kiwilandicMark: to be honest I don't care if you shove the river or if you bet slightly less, but betting exactly pot is so gross
[12:15] eug: ya? why?
[12:15] Stax: Turn is obv trying to valuetown. I'd go a little closer to pot.. T can make some of his straights that he is now not folding, as well as the 7x hands he isn't folding, and the rare T9.
[12:16] Stax:betting pot is gross.
[12:16] fat:whale possibly river hes flosh so hes never folding
[12:16] Stax: like the exact amount
[12:16] kiwilandicMark:Because betting pot is like "HI I HAVE THE NUTS"
[12:16] Stax:it's like a psychological thing
[12:16] kiwilandicMark:"I WANT MAXIMUM VALUE FROM YOU BUT IF I BET OVER POT IT WILL SCARE YOU SO THIS IS AS HIGH AS IT CAN GO"
[12:16] eug:hmm ya push does look weaker for sure
[12:16] Stax:Do you ever bet exactly pot without a value hand?
[12:17] eug:it was a brainless potbutton moment i sadly admit


Summary: I have the (2nd) nuts, he could have made a flush that he won't fold, he also might not fold straights and a 7x. A PSB gets less value and is psychologically scarier. Overbet river shoving is a weapon that I seldom use, and possibly needs to be incorporated into my game.

Hello. I have been following along on these postings and would like to get involved in the discussion. I am fairly new to posting on forums so please bear with me.
First, I'd like to say thanks for starting this discussion. It has finally got me around to reading this book. It's been on my list since it came out and I just have never gotten around to it. It's helped improve my game already.
I am relatively new to playing online. I played quite a bit of live poker in the past but due to a move I don't get to cardrooms that often now. I've had so-so results online. It is a different beast.
In regards to this chapter on bet-sizing, I've noticed that at the micros, many players seem either oblivious of or simply don't care about pot odds. They will also call/raise/shove very lite. As I result, I've found I push my strong hands much harder and also call down considerably lighter than I would in a live game. One other thing, NLHE Theory & Practice is geared mainly toward deep-stack play. I'd be very interested in comments from the experienced online players as to how they adjust these concepts to more shallow micro limit play.
Thanks. Hopefully, I'll be able to contribute some more regarding the book in the future weeks.

Quote:

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[11:57] kiwilandicMark:
1. we're likely to get value from UTG since he's such a whale, 2. since he's likely to call a lot but we don't reeeeally want MP in there we're wanting to bet bigger to chase him out (ie. it's gonna be tempting for him to call after UTG calls)

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In slightly less retarded words: 1. UTG is calling with a wide range that we're ahead of so we get value there, 2. since UTG is calling a lot (thus inflating the size of the pot) our 3bet needs to be larger to deny MP profitable odds to call.

Peer pressure has forced me into ordering this book on amazon.

Really like this section - progressive format seems better. One thing which seems to be a big problem form people (including me) at the micro's is betting smaller in an attempt to keep villein in the pot, what I don't think we realize is that they call far more often than we think.

Also agree about being unbalanced against against fish not mattering initially.

ive been reading this thread a lot but not posting much, very busy. ill try make a post in the week4 thread

Hey guys sorry I haven't made the week 4 thread yet i've been hella busy this week. I'll defo make it on Monday though and until then we can just continue discussion on bet sizing. If anyone's got any mnore thoughts it'd be great to hear them.

Hopefully week 4 will be a bit more fruitful. All you guys hiding in the woodwork crawl out please!

Here's a hand I played this week where I think I really scewed up in terms of bet sizing.


2NL
MP2 is 11/8 over 47 hands
I don't have any read on CO with only 10 hands, idem for the BB

Pre-flop I called on the sb a 4bb raise to setmine, planning to fold if I don't hit since I will be oop for the rest of the hand. I do put MP2 on a range mostly 77+,A9s+,KTs+,QTs+,JTs, ATo+,KQo.

I do hit my set on the flop. The flop is coordinated for straight draws and I am against 3 opponents. So I put 1/2 PSB, giving pot odds of 1:3, which is not a bad size bet in my opinion. Or maybe a bigger size would have been better since I'm against 3 villains ? Then the BB raises to 18bb, MP2 calls...and then I reraise to 6X the pot. I the moment I thought one of the two would be going for stacks, and I was raising for value. But they could have also been on a straight draw where I could have just called and bet the turn with a 1/2 to 2/3 psb to get more value. I think also that in the back of my mind, the fear of being outdrawn was a factor for that big reraise.

Overall I guess it would have been just better to flat the flop and bet the turn for value. But in the book, the examples are I think exclusively in a HU situation, what about where you are in a multiway pot ? How do you adjust your bet sizing in these situations ?


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($2.21)
Hero (SB) ($5.27)
BB ($0.94)
UTG ($1)
MP1 ($1.50)
MP2 ($4.37)
CO ($0.87)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif
2 folds, MP2 bets $0.08, CO calls $0.08, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.07, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.32) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...ilies/club.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $0.16, BB raises to $0.36, MP2 calls $0.36, 1 fold, Hero raises to $2.14, 2 folds

Total pot: $1.40 | Rake: $0.05

Results:
Hero didn't show 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif.
Outcome: Hero won $1.35