JJ in SB... what to do.

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04-25-2010, 02:22 PM
tom

10NL 6max: JJ in SB... what to do.

UTG is 25/22 over ~20 hands. Button was similar over less hands. Nothing real interesting otherwise.
Preflop-- should I be squeezing here? Seemed like a bad spot at the time vs UTG raise, BU call.
I feel like flop line is bad and gets me in to a crappy spot on the turn. So somewhere I should show aggression before I lead the turn, I just don't know where.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

CO ($2.35)
Button ($10.15)
SB ($11.60)
Hero (BB) ($10)
UTG ($12.80)
MP ($10)

Preflop: Hero is BB with J:spade:, J:club:
UTG bets $0.40, 2 folds, Button calls $0.40, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30

Flop: ($1.25) 2:diamond:, 3:spade:, 10:club: (3 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $0.90, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.90

Turn: ($3.05) 10:spade: (2 players)
Hero bets $2.30, UTG raises to $11.50 (All-In), Hero????

Total pot: $7.65 | Rake: $0.35
04-25-2010, 03:03 PM
al yell

to be taken with a grain of salt but I would like to offer my analysis...

if we assume that UTG is never flatting the squeeze (with the exception of slowplaying AA to get more $ out of BTN - which he'll prob rarely do anyhow), he is either raising or folding. When he raises we're behind or flipping, when he folds we were prob way ahead. We allow him to play perfectly. Better then to squeeze as a bluff with hands you don't mind giving up with to a shove and that play reasonably well postflop in the event that we get called (K7s, Q9s and so on). But that being said I'm not sure the optimal dynamics exist here for a squeeze. So flatting pre seems right to me.

postflop i think my plan is c/c > c/c > c/f

your turn lead seems weak - i.e. what hands are you doing this with for value?
04-25-2010, 04:27 PM
rong

I hate JJ 3-way, becomes about as good as 55. 3bet pre.
04-25-2010, 04:52 PM
MiLEHiGH

Quote:

Originally Posted by al yell

postflop i think my plan is c/c > c/c > c/f

your turn lead seems weak - i.e. what hands are you doing this with for value?

+1
04-25-2010, 05:37 PM
FlyingSaucy

I agree with 3bet pre and check turn.
04-25-2010, 08:38 PM
al yell

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanAronG

3bet pre.

I'd love to understanding why. If anyone could offer an explanation it would be greatly appreciated.
04-25-2010, 08:53 PM
kmind

I agree with flat call pre for the reasons al yell said.
04-25-2010, 10:35 PM
rpm

i 3bet here sometimes if i know villain is opening wide and calling 3bets with a high % of that range, because we are going to still have the best hand on the flop more often vs a wide range than vs a tight range, so being OOP isnt as bad. vs typical villains i probably smooth here. if villain cbets a lot of flops, i like c/c'ing. if villain is pretty straightforward/honest, perhaps donkbet? more for hand protection and forcing villain to define his hand than for pure value, although we still get value from T9+ and possibly 66-99.
04-26-2010, 06:28 AM
Poker Guru

3bet pre. As played check/call the turn and re-evaluate river.
04-26-2010, 07:51 AM
rong

Can we throw some ranges in here.

What's UTG raising range? And 3bet calling range? 4bet range?

I guess the answsers to all our questions will come from here.

I don't play 6max, so kinda useless here, but I would have opening range as ATs+, AJ+, 22+, KJs+, KQ. Someone who knows what they are doing should take over now.
04-26-2010, 02:14 PM
oskar

I'm surprised people think that UTG will fold a huge part of his range to a squeeze. But that's something for OP to figure out. If I call I would donk the flop unless UTG is a hopeless c-betting monkey or BTN bets in position no matter what. Because I don't think calling ranges are narrower than betting ranges, and you get to control the betting and stuff.

Your turn donk is really weired. What are you trying to do with that? Especially after the c/c on the flop.
04-26-2010, 07:24 PM
!Luck

3 betting is BAD. If your logic to 3 bet is cause arg hand XX is bad multiway then you are not thinking correctly. Donk betting is an interesting idea oskar, cause then you will get value of AK,AQ and a bunch of other random crap.

I know donk betting is scary because if QKA hit on turn you need to seriously consider giving up and if you don't have the discipline you should just play this hand as a sit minner.

As played the turn is SUPER easy fold.
04-26-2010, 07:52 PM
tom

Flop I was looking for value from any overs or other pp that missed. Then turn I realized I hate giving the possibility of a free river card for overs, so that's likely the thought behind the turn donk. It does look weird looking at it now-- If I'm flatting pre I like the c/c, c/c, c/f or c river depending...

My 20 hand assumption of UTG wasn't that he was opening wide from EP-- but it's still an OKAY spot to squeeze? The idea of being oop w/ JJ in a 3bet pot scares me.

btw I'm only 2k hands in to my first go of 6max, which is also a return from a long hiatus from poker(FR) so I still have a lot of FR nit & general rust so there's not necessarily a good reason for anything I do!
04-27-2010, 01:50 PM
littleogre

call pf bet flop check turn
04-27-2010, 02:36 PM
rong

Prior to reading this thread (and prior to dropping 4 buyins in 280 hands last night - yes, that's right, I lost at a rate of 143bb/100 hands) I would have played as follows:

3bet pre to 1.20, hopefully only one caller,
pot on flop: $2.95
Bet $2.20 on flop & fold to raise, or sometimes c/r shove, depending on mood.
If called, I would have shoved the turn card.

Now I appreciate this is wrong. Is this turning a made hand into a bluff? This is something I struggle with & my experience so far since moving upto 10nl is that players are far more aware & seem to pay a lot more attention with regard to ranges (compared to 5nl anyway). If we had say TJs and I had called, I could happily c/c to see a showdown (ignoring turn T), but with an overpair I feel I should be able to handle some action. Can we really have villains range narrowed down to sets QQ+?

By calling pre, are we simply playing for set value or hoping to get a cheap showdown?
04-27-2010, 02:51 PM
kmind

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanAronG

By calling pre, are we simply playing for set value or hoping to get a cheap showdown?

Well, not necessarily either. By calling, we accomplish a few things:

1. We don't turn our hand into a bluff because IMO (and this is huge that it's just MY opinion and better reads could definitely change this) he won't continue if we 3bet unless he has QQ+/AK SOMETIMES JJ and rarely TT. I play more tightly until I have a better read he'll be flatting with more than those hands.

2. It strengthens our flat calling range. This is the part where it doesn't necessarily mean we need a cheap showdown. By shoring up our preflop calling range, we are able to play a bigger pot postflop because we now have a stronger hand compared to our perceived weak range. Do you get that? I feel like I can't explain that well.

Also, I wouldn't donk this turn and him raising is a clear fold because the turn hit our range pretty well and he doesn't care (full houses/quads/Tx/QQ+...but mainly full houses/quads/Tx).

However, I think donking this turn is not something Tom would actually do for value and I personally would raise this a lot as a bluff. I don't think most 10NLers would do that though.
04-28-2010, 04:08 AM
rong

Quote:

Originally Posted by kmind

1. We don't turn our hand into a bluff because IMO (and this is huge that it's just MY opinion and better reads could definitely change this) he won't continue if we 3bet unless he has QQ+/AK SOMETIMES JJ and rarely TT. I play more tightly until I have a better read he'll be flatting with more than those hands.

I guess this is where I disagree, and also how I justify 3betting. I think 3bets are called far, far wider than this at 5nl.

I would include something along the lines of:

100% of the time: AK+, JJ+
50% of the time: AQ, KQs, 77-TT.
30% of the time: KQ
10% of the time I'd even throw in 89s-QJs

Maybe I'm well out with this, but I've had 3bets called by all kinds of crap. If I get the time I'd like to trawl through HM and get some stats, as the above is just off the top of my head and could be miles out, but time etc.
04-28-2010, 05:19 AM
Sabr1988

Only guessing, but i think it can seem like he have QQ or when talking about his call UTG it could be, as you pointed, that he was slowplaying aces. Actually it seems more like AA or KK play, with that allin at last.
04-28-2010, 06:59 AM
Fnord

Call
Check/Call
Check/Call
Check/Call
Fold if bet sizing or timing or something makes you think he's got it.

YouTube - Eric Prydz - Call On Me
05-01-2010, 02:20 PM
littleogre

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fnord

Call
Check/Call
Check/Call
Check/Call
Fold if bet sizing or timing or something makes you think he's got it.

YouTube - Eric Prydz - Call On Me

My dick would rip through my pants if i was that guy.
05-01-2010, 03:08 PM
IAM-member

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanAronG

I guess this is where I disagree, and also how I justify 3betting. I think 3bets are called far, far wider than this at 5nl.

I would include something along the lines of:

100% of the time: AK+, JJ+
50% of the time: AQ, KQs, 77-TT.
30% of the time: KQ
10% of the time I'd even throw in 89s-QJs

Maybe I'm well out with this, but I've had 3bets called by all kinds of crap. If I get the time I'd like to trawl through HM and get some stats, as the above is just off the top of my head and could be miles out, but time etc.

Wow I really want to see some stats to back this, and besides you're totally forgetting/leaving out factors such as 3bet sizing, previous history, etc.