Possibly retarded turn shove in 3-bet pot.

Villain is 31/23/20% 3 bet over 40 hands. The hand right before this one he 3-bet me from the BU and folded to my 4-bet.

Preflop: I feel like he's light here a good amount of the time and that we're starting to establish a pretty aggro dynamic. I could fold here, but feel like ATs is likely ahead of a bunch of his range and should play alright IP. 4-betting seems bad since I've just done this and he'll probably be felting lighter than usual as a result.

Flop: When he checks I decided this was likely one of two things: Him check raising the nfd or another fd, or him giving up. I decided to take a shot since ui felt he must be giving up a fair amount and woul defo bet overpairs and other vulnerable hands on this board.

Turn: When he called the flop i guess i kind of forgot about my line of resaoning and decided it was very hard for him to have a flush or a strong hand here because most weak flushes will be betting or raising the flop and check calling the naked Ac or Qc seems bizzare and bad. Thus, I felt like i could fold out whatever the hell he has here quite often.

Thoughts?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($52.10)
CO ($76.40)
Hero (Button) ($95.20)
SB ($50)
BB ($10)
UTG ($52.05)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10:heart:, A:heart:
3 folds, Hero bets $1.75, SB raises $5.75, 1 fold, Hero calls $4.25

Flop: ($12.50) 5:club:, 9:club:, 8:club: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $8.50, SB calls $8.50

Turn: ($29.50) K:club: (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $80.70 (All-In)

he's got $35.50 behind here.

Seems terrible. 4bet shove pre.

Why do we want to 4-bet shove pre here? Surely that will just result in us getting it in in pretty bad shape some of the time and folding out the rest of his range the majority of the time.

Your argument for not 4betting pre applies to most postflop scenarios when we call.

He might be stacking off lighter post flop aswell yeah, but preflop the spot where we 4-bet is such that he'll shove over a range of likely some bluffs and obviously stuff he's stacking off with maybe TT+ AQ+. I don't think I like having to call it off because if he's shoving stuff like 55 33 and 78s as bluffs then our equity vs his range as a whole will be shit.

By flatting we can keep in Ax type hands, and given the majority of his range will miss most flops, we should be able to float, play back profitably when we flop some equity since 55 will no longer want to just get it in nor will AQ with no pair etc where as these hands put us in shitty posts preflop if hes shipping them over our 4 bet due to him not respecting our 4-bet much at all. This is kind of a rant I'm thinknig through as i write, but I guess what I mean to say is that postflop we have way more FE than we do preflop because even though he might stack off lightly due to thinknig I'm f.o.s he can't do this when he flops badly and a lot of the time he will.

Also, we should pick up bets from his nearly whole range when an ace flops and a hand like ATs can flop some decent semi bluffing chances, where as felting it preflop, turns it into a hand that has like 40-60% vs his bluff shoves and much less vs his actual value range.

That's why I prefer calling to 4-betting and where I think there is a difference between the two, even though his standards of felting will be reduced both pre and post flop.

I'm kinda tired btw so I apologise is that makes no sense and I've just wasted 2 mins of anyone's day lolz.

I think you played it fine.

pretty cool, think id call u with red QQ here. this is maybe the worst hand representation ive ever seen

If I wanted to bluff this board, I'd check back turn and bet/shove river if he checked again.

I agree with nuts that you're not repping anything other than a bluff, pretty well here. What range of hands would you shove this turn with exactly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

If I wanted to bluff this board, I'd check back turn and bet/shove river if he checked again.

I agree with nuts that you're not repping anything other than a bluff, pretty well here. What range of hands would you shove this turn with exactly?

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I agree, I rep very very little. However, this guy is a 50NL player who probably can't make a hero call with red QQ nor even red AK. If I don't think he has very many flushes here, and I don't exepct him to be that good a player, then I don't care that I rep nothing because I don't expect him to know this and if he does I still don't expect him to make a hero call with much less than a set.

I know most of you guys play higher and would snap a line like this while fist pumping all night; but against your avg 50NL half thinking, half zombie reg, what do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroters

but against your avg 50NL half thinking, half zombie reg, what do you think?

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this is why I think it's fine, he rarely has a club here and won't call without one

Quote:

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Originally Posted by zook

this is why I think it's fine, he rarely has a club here and won't call without one

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But why is is not better to check back and wait to bluff on the river? You can be more certain of his hand strength then.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by griffey24

But why is is not better to check back and wait to bluff on the river? You can be more certain of his hand strength then.

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that is better, no argument there

i read the first reply and skipped the rest to avoid bias...but one thing beyond just 'this is bad' is that if you're gonna do this, you need to check the turn and bet the river (if he doesn't bet in which case it's a snap fold). The turn reps nothing unless you want to bet small and shove the river but the better line is to check back which is plausible for having something and you can later rep like the 3rd nut flush looking to get value and get him to fold something. You basically have polarized yourself to the Ac and pure air by this turn bet.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Ravageur

i read the first reply and skipped the rest to avoid bias...but one thing beyond just 'this is bad' is that if you're gonna do this, you need to check the turn and bet the river (if he doesn't bet in which case it's a snap fold). The turn reps nothing unless you want to bet small and shove the river but the better line is to check back which is plausible for having something and you can later rep like the 3rd nut flush looking to get value and get him to fold something. You basically have polarized yourself to the Ac and pure air by this turn bet.

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you overbet shove the ace of clubs here?

Hmm...good point, I definitely don't. At least not on the turn. I guess my intent in the last line of my post is that when we shove the turn we're not often going for value with like the 3rd nut flush whereas we can get value from it on the river and turn a greater profit longterm? I think that polarized crap i said must be just flat our wrong.

It seems like we have a lot of fans of the go broke on a bluff strategy here. It's okay to fold sometimes. BTW, small blind raises with an overpair on the flop and calls with a single high club hand (or raises). Since you got called, you're toast.

thoughts on betting exactly $8.50 again on turn?