QJo in 3 bet pot - correcting my shit play.

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03-11-2010, 01:26 PM
Carroters

QJo in 3 bet pot - correcting my shit play.

Villain is 19/15 25% ATS with a fold to 3 bet of 80% over 60 hands. My image is aggro reg and I've been 3 betting a few times on this table.

*Edit: forgot to post the hand.....lolz.

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.50 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($56.10)
Hero (BB) ($55)
UTG ($31.55)
MP ($67.70)
CO ($58.20)
Button ($65.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif
3 folds, Button bets $2, 1 fold, Hero raises $6.50, Button calls $5

Flop: ($14.25) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $7.50, Button calls $7.50

Turn: ($29.25) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/pokerfo...lies/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $17, Hero folds

Total pot: $29.25

Preflop: Seems like an good spot to 3-bet as a bluff since he's been folding so much and I haven't yet 3-bet him this session. My hand is no way good enough vs his range to flat oop and I probably fold out some of the hands that dominate me.

Flop: Okay so he flats preflop and I've got info to suggest he doesn't defend too lightly. His range could be something like [99-JJ AJ-AQ, KQ] given he looks quite strightforward I'd say it's more likely he 4 bets with QQ-AA although not certain. So on this dry flop i'd assume all I'm folding out is AJ and AQ and even then those hands might float or whatever, I don't know much about his postflop game. Given this, I think giving up is probably fine here given we expected our 3-bet to get through a lot of the time preflop and we don't rep that many combos of strong hands on this flop and are likely against a strongish range. But, I decided to c-bet...

Turn: Okay so I didn't even decide what i was going to do on the turn when I bet the flop which is dumb as hell. I think his range is mostly 99-JJ maybe some QQ and possibly a few AQ type floats. I could barell turn, but stack sizes are such that I probably cant fire river and fold out very much. So i relaise I've fucked up this hand.

Conclusion: Given my read of his range I think I should either bet like 12 on the flop then shove the turn to try to fold out 99-JJ and any floats, or just give up there and then. C-betting flop folds out so little of his hands that it's just shit and thrwoing money away when we c/f turn. So yeah, my conclusion is shipping it in in 2 streets is better than my line, but giving up on the flop is likely slightly better still because I have no idea how often he stacks off with 99-JJ.

Do people agree?

If you respond can I ask you engage at least a little with the argument I've put forward there and not just write "ZOMFG DRY - I'm always c-betting this flop!!!!!"

Thanks in adavcne.
03-11-2010, 03:22 PM
griffey24

I don't hate the 3bet if he's folding so much to 3bets, but your sample sizing is ridiculously small.

Assuming you actually had a big sample and he folded 80%, then meh it's fine. Once a guy like this calls you though, I'd just c/f the flop mostly. His range is just killing yours.

If a guy like this calls he also prob has a lot of pairs. All of those pairs are going to call this flop I'd imagine, so betting once and c/f turn doesn't make much sense. Just c/f.
03-11-2010, 03:49 PM
Carroters

Cool thanks, this was pretty much the same conclusion I came to myself when I started analysing.
03-11-2010, 05:03 PM
shakesss

I really don't like c betting 3 bet pots and folding turn oop. If i am unsure about his range i would probably bet bigger ( but not much more, 9 maybe) to define his range more or check fold. If i do bet though i am usually gonna barrel off. Dont know whether that is right but it feels better than c/f'ing turn after betting. Really bad for your table image to give up so easy. In 3b pots a king on the board is generally safe for the 3better. The button cant have too many kings in his range besides AK ( which he usually 4bets), and King is a strong part of your perceived range.

If he has 1010-QQ i think three barrels would do it. I usually keep a bigger river bet for the end.

So basically c/f flop or barrel. Its close. Showdown stats would help deciding which one to go for.

Sample size is also too small to make any assumptions besides his PFR.

Also 3b more ip rather than oop. Its much more fun.
03-11-2010, 05:40 PM
Carroters

Quote:

Originally Posted by shakesss

I really don't like c betting 3 bet pots and folding turn oop. If i am unsure about his range i would probably bet bigger ( but not much more, 9 maybe) to define his range more or check fold. If i do bet though i am usually gonna barrel off. Dont know whether that is right but it feels better than c/f'ing turn after betting. Really bad for your table image to give up so easy. In 3b pots a king on the board is generally safe for the 3better. The button cant have too many kings in his range besides AK ( which he usually 4bets), and King is a strong part of your perceived range.

If he has 1010-QQ i think three barrels would do it. I usually keep a bigger river bet for the end.

So basically c/f flop or barrel. Its close. Showdown stats would help deciding which one to go for.

Sample size is also too small to make any assumptions besides his PFR.

Also 3b more ip rather than oop. Its much more fun.

Yeah the majority of my 3-betting is done in position, this seemed like a decent spot though even though sample size isn't the best.

Note stack sizes in this spot. 3 barrels really isn't going to work well because we'd have to bet the turn absurdly small in order to shove the river with any clout. Better, I think is just betting 10 or 11+ on the flop and then shipping the turn for a psb or less.

This hand is a great example of my tendency to not think through someone's range at the time and thus take a retarded line, which becomes evidently terrible as soon as I start to analyse it.
03-11-2010, 06:25 PM
surviva316

1 seems like the worst amount of barrels to fire on this board. 0 is prolly the best
03-11-2010, 09:02 PM
meeloche

Quote:

Originally Posted by Carroters

Cool thanks, this was pretty much the same conclusion I came to myself when I started analysing.

Your conclusion is correct.