Trouble with AA

Here is a hand I played a few hours ago. Just joined the table so no reads on the players.

***** Hand History for Game 2057022008 ***** (IPoker)
$10.00 USD NL Texas Hold'em - Sunday, January 10, 07:33:19 ET 2010
Table Teyov (Real Money)
Seat 5 is the button
Seat 1: haha1168 ( $3.39 USD )
Seat 3: voltage95 ( $33.18 USD )
Seat 5: cardemon ( $10.50 USD )
Seat 6: Tinzoza ( $10.78 USD )
Seat 8: Avatar379 ( $19.08 USD )
Seat 10: Wensum ( $10.00 USD )
Tinzoza posts small blind [$0.05 USD].
Avatar379 posts big blind [$0.10 USD].
** Dealing down cards **
Dealt to voltage95 [ Ah Ad ]
Wensum calls [$0.10 USD]
haha1168 calls [$0.10 USD]
voltage95 raises [$0.60 USD]
cardemon calls [$0.60 USD]
Tinzoza folds
Avatar379 folds
Wensum calls [$0.50 USD]
haha1168 folds
** Dealing Flop ** [ Jc, 4h, 6c ]
Wensum checks
voltage95 bets [$1.60 USD]
cardemon folds
Wensum calls [$1.60 USD]
** Dealing Turn ** [ Jh ]
Wensum checks
voltage95 bets [$3.80 USD]
Wensum raises [$7.80 USD]
voltage95?

I'm thinking I should bet a little more on the flop. On the turn, is this a good amount to bet for a standard amount. With flush draw out there I dont want to bet to small, but I'm basically committing myself with this amount?

When he check raises I'm getting 4.21 to 1 on a call, but what would he do this with that I actually beat. Becasue he limped into the pot preflop I really dont know what to do hear.

If your opponent did have a Jack, then no matter what raise you put, it is likely that you would have been called as he had top pair (and probably high kicker). AA is hard to deal. Most times I get them I'm forced all-in so there is no decision to make, which sounds good until opponents lower pair hits trips or makes a flush. My success rate with AA is horrific, but you can't fold them pre-flop.

Flop bet is fine... anything between $1.50 and full pot would be pretty good. Your turn bet is pretty big. $3 is plenty to charge flush draws and the couple of straight draws that are out there. As soon as he raises, without reads, we have to fold.

Because of that, if you have any reason to believe that Wensum is aggressive (that he could be (semi-)bluffing you here), checking behind the turn is definitely an option. Then evaluate Villain's bet size and the river card to see if you should be calling, or if he checks to you on a non-club put in a value bet.

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Originally Posted by Voltage97

but what would he do this with that I actually beat.

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Put him on a range, see how obvious it is and fold

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($3.39)
Hero (CO) ($33.18)
Button ($10.50)
SB ($10.78)
BB ($19.08)
UTG ($10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.60, Button calls $0.60, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.50, 1 fold

Flop: ($2.05) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $1.60, 1 fold, UTG calls $1.60

Turn: ($5.25) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $3.80, UTG raises $7.80 (All-In)

Total pot: $12.85

Why would you bet this turn if your plan wasn't to stack off anyway.

I would much rather check the turn to get some value from weaker hands on the river, unless I know he's going to c/r worse PP's for value or something.

As said before, put him on a range. In this case I'd say the range has to include 44, 66, Jx maybe some club flush draws maybe some other pp. What are your reads on him? I'd play 44 or 66 exactly like this if I was the villain. You gotta remember with AA that once you get cards on the board it's not nearly as strong as it was preflop. I think you're behind here a vast majority of the time so just let the aces go. Bet sizing is fine though but I think I might be checking the turn since that card hits every part of his range pretty hard unless he is bluffing with air.

Yea this is one of those hands that is always answered by the question, "why are you betting, What hands do you expect to call that are worse? What hands do you expect to fold that are better?"

u played it fine, now fold. checking back turn would be uncool

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Originally Posted by XTR1000

u played it fine, now fold. checking back turn would be uncool

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Bet folding is horrible also

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Originally Posted by Muzzard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XTR1000

u played it fine, now fold. checking back turn would be uncool

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Bet folding is horrible also

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B/f gets calls off FDs and 77-TT, QQ-KK some % the time, whilst check/bet riv misses the value from FDs. B/f turn also manipulates his ranges in a way which makes it fairly easy for us to play against, as he is v unlikely to be CR bluffing, whilst a pot control line leaves room for error on your side when the villian decides to lead whatever river rolls off.

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Originally Posted by XTR1000

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Muzzard

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XTR1000

u played it fine, now fold. checking back turn would be uncool

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Bet folding is horrible also

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B/f gets calls off FDs and 77-TT, QQ-KK some % the time, whilst check/bet riv misses the value from FDs. B/f turn also manipulates his ranges in a way which makes it fairly easy for us to play against, as he is v unlikely to be CR bluffing, whilst a pot control line leaves room for error on your side when the villian decides to lead whatever river rolls off.

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Some ppl will spazz it off with 99/TT or similar and even some FD's coz they are retarded. Which makes it pretty hard if you dunno if hes tight and will c/r Jx and FH's only or is spazz and will shovel 99 and similar along with FD's. Plus if we bet we're getting over 4:1 so it's kinda stupid to fold esp if we don't know if their jamming range is only Jx+FD's.

I deleted my agree becauwe I meant to agree with XTR's post. I don't like playing AA for 100BB when we can't get a 3bet in pre and have multiple callers. I don't think too many FD's or underpairs are C/C and C/Raising turns here. If we want to bet three streets we need to work on better sizing then. Without reads and having raises come over the top of this sizing I fold it up, if we showed weakness or had reads he's spastic I may call the turn.

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Originally Posted by jyms

I deleted my agree becauwe I meant to agree with XTR's post. I don't like playing AA for 100BB when we can't get a 3bet in pre and have multiple callers. I don't think too many FD's or underpairs are C/C and C/Raising turns here. If we want to bet three streets we need to work on better sizing then. Without reads and having raises come over the top of this sizing I fold it up, if we showed weakness or had reads he's spastic I may call the turn.

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Villain is all-in, what the point of betting the turn if we're effectively folding to a min raise when we're closing the action and getting 4.x:1?

I'm not saying check is correct or betting is correct, I'm saying if we are betting then b/calling has to be correct.

That's why I said we should be betting a little smaller on the turn, and then fold to the raise. The majority of 10NL fish don't spazz with draws as popular convention would have you believe. They WILL call with any pocket pair, any pair on the board, and any kind of draw. They WILL almost always have the J or a full house when they raise. So bet/folding is pretty optimal against your standard 10NL fish.

This was my point about working on bet sizing. Once called multiway preflop we need to replan the hand to not get it all in. C betting $1.30 into $1.80 does the same thing, and then the pot is $4.40 and we can bet $2.50 or so. This not only saves us some money vs his tighter calling range and allows us to fold to a shove or raise on the turn but also widens his calling range if he does have 88-TT and we can either bet the river for value or C/shove depending on reads. As played I agree muzzard

Pot is $2.05 on the flop. I think $1.30 is a bit small. AA is only going to get worse as the hand goes on, so I think $1.50 is the minimum I would bet, especially since there are a lot of worse hands calling us on a J-high flop (as compared to how often we are beat). That would make the pot $5 on the turn, and a bet of $2.50-3 would work nicely, making it not too hard to fold to a raise of $5 more (even if it's a minraise, the implication is that he's going to put the rest in on the river).

The pot is actually $1.95. $0.60 x3 and BB and SB. Just discount the blinds as rake. The pot is never $1.95 once the flop is dealt

Put your opponent...

Ah fuck it.

I get it spoon. We get it. This is an unknown which makes that hard, but here you go anyways.

Villain's range preflop is like 54s+, 64s+, T7s+, Q8s+, 22+, Ax, broadways, K9o, Q9o, J9o, T9o, 98o. If Villain is less fishy there might be less Ax unsuited (but still all Axs) and the offsuit 9s might not be in that range. If Villain is more fishy there will be most suited hands, unsuited connectors, any 2 cards over 8, and Kx.

(The stuff in parentheses below is the extent of Villain's level 1 thinking. Don't tell me Villains are purely level 0, I don't believe that.)

Villain will check/call flop with literally any pair (he has AK and is just cbetting), 75s, 87s, any 2 clubs, probably Axhh Kxhh Qxhh, and sometimes A-high and KQ.

The J doesn't change anything in Villain's mind, but I think it might decrease the likelihood that a Villain would bluff (he might have the J and my bluff won't work). Villain will now fold many of his unimproved A-high and KQ hands. He will of course call again with his AKQ-high heart draws, his club draws, 75s, 87cc and 87hh. He might fold pairs that don't beat 6 (other than A4; fish seem to continue calling marginal pairs when they have an A as well), but he'll continue to call with 65s, 76s, 86s, A6, 77-TT. If he slowplayed 64s on the flop we just sucked out on him. If he slowplayed 66 or 44 on the flop or if he has a J he'll either a) check/call and pot river b) check/minraise and shove river c) check/shove, with (b) being the most common play that I see.

As I said, I'm not expecting Villain to bluff this turn because he'll be thinking that we either have a bluff or the J, so when he starts shoveling in money it most likely means that we have 2 outs to beat him. If he's good enough to bluff 75cc and 75hh, that's fine because it's such a small part of his range compared to the Jx and FH hands that we're not making a mistake by folding. If he's bluffing with a draw or pure air he's making a mistake against our range on this turn anyways, which is probably TT+/Jx/FH.

So bet/fold for value and if you fold the best hand sometimes oh well, make a note and pwn him later.

If we check the turn, we could get value from some missed draws on the river. The problem is that his range is pretty wide on the flop so we have to call practically any river, but being an unknown we're not really sure how much he'll be bluffing. That means we allow him to value bet any J, any spiked FH, and any made draw; worst of all we let him get there for free.

This seems like a pretty clear spot to me, which is why I didn't take the time to put Villain on a specific range of hands. I have a feeling for what kind of hands Villain goes to the turn with and how he's going to play those hands against us on the turn and river. It seems like a spot where bet/folding the turn and deciding the river is more +EV and less of a headache than the alternative.

fold
no matter if he is bluffing or semibluffing
you'll get another aces