3 AK Hands (DO NOT READ SPOON)

This post is more for me to chastise myself for atrocious play. I am forcing myself to be publicly flogged by all of you nice poeple, in the hopes that I never repeat such play again. I am not posting results because they do not matter.

In the last 1300 hands I made 3 bad plays, not just bad but awful. All plays happened with AK. If anyone has mental tricks to not be a spewtard with this hand i welcome that advice.

This is not just a whine post, because after making a few bad plays today I started doing the following every time I got dealt AK. Fold. No just kidding, that's why I didn't want spoon to read.

I started to completely ignore all other tables every time i was dealt and repeat this slogan in my head. IT IS JUST AK, IT IS JUST AK, nothing more, DO NOT Get stacked after the flop with just a high card or TPTK. It is more concise in my head. But this helped, I stopped being a spewtard. I hope it last. But this thread will be my memory and my embarrassment.

Logic:

Pre Flop: Standard
Flop: Standard (Maybe bet should 60 but does that matter? or with a flush I need to pot it?)

Turn: I suck at playing AK out of position, thus im trying to control the size of the pot. Pot is laying me 3:1 and at this point I should expect a set hunter. The call may be acceptable (MAYBE???)

Cutoff is 7/3 over 191 hands.

River: My logic was to bet this hand for value or make the the better just call with stronger but not godly hands. BAM. Brain stops working and I call. BTW the winner of this hand was not a set.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($5.10)
MP1 ($5)
MP2 ($5.71)
MP3 ($7.22)
CO ($10)
Button ($10.10)
SB ($8.40)
Hero (BB) ($7.73)
UTG ($5.55)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
UTG calls $0.05, 4 folds, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, SB calls $0.03, Hero bets $0.20, UTG calls $0.15, CO calls $0.15, SB calls $0.15

Flop: ($0.80) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (4 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $0.55, 1 fold, CO calls $0.55, 1 fold

Turn: ($1.90) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, CO bets $0.75, Hero calls $0.75

River: ($3.40) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.25, CO raises to $8.50 (All-In), Hero calls $4.98 (All-In)

Total pot: $15.86 | Rake: $0.75


Logic:

Preflop: Villian is 21/3 over 120 hands. At this point I feel like he is only doing this with qq+ maybe AK is in there.

Flop: Weak bet sets me off so I reraise to see where I stand I have been trapped and i do not think players at this level are capable of doing a total bluff so I should let it go. I do don't Mistake 1.

Turn: He gives me another chance to lay down a hand. he is yelling I have a strong hand. I do not listen.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP2) ($5.64)
CO ($5)
Button ($2.54)
SB ($3.66)
BB ($7.03)
UTG ($6.56)
UTG+1 ($12.06)
MP1 ($11.26)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG bets $0.15, UTG+1 raises to $0.50, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.50, 4 folds, UTG calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.57) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (3 players)
UTG checks, UTG+1 bets $0.20, Hero raises to $1.15, 1 fold, UTG+1 raises to $2.45, Hero calls $1.30

Turn: ($6.47) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $3.65, Hero calls $2.69 (All-In)

River: ($11.85) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $11.85 | Rake: $0.55


Logic:
PreFlop: Standard Raise. BB is 60/5 over 20 hands. Thus giving my position and hand strength a 4-bet seems okay here. The button is 48/0 over 21 hands.

Flop: The check by the BB could be a trap, but I think giving the lack of information and that in theory(only theory since I do not have enough info to put them on a solid range) BB could have TT+ AKs, AKo. I lead out to test the water, the call by alerts me that he may be set hunting or a weak player playing jj-aa meekly.

Turn: This is where I believe I make my first major mistake. I think the only reasonable line here is push if I think he has jj-aa or c/f. My bet is idiotic, as i have no room on the river to do anything and I have already committed myself. Even though the pot is laying me 4.6 to one to call his reraise, I know I am beat as this is such unlikely bluff move.



PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (CO) ($4.91)
Button ($4.09)
SB ($7.18)
BB ($3.83)
UTG ($2.59)
UTG+1 ($1.65)
MP1 ($2.48)
MP2 ($15.10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
4 folds, Hero bets $0.15, Button calls $0.15, 1 fold, BB raises to $0.50, Hero calls $0.35, Button calls $0.35

Flop: ($1.52) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $1, Button calls $1, 1 fold

Turn: ($3.52) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.55, Button raises to $2.59 (All-In), Hero calls $1.04

River: ($8.70) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $8.70 | Rake: $0.40

Thank you in advance for your whippings.

You have an absolutely huge glaring psychological issue but it's probably not what you think it is. Let me elaborate:

Hand 1: You have a very good seat. Everyone on your right you are playing deep with, and everyone on your left you are not playing deep with. Your preflop raise size should be larger with 3 limpers. Make it about 7-8x. The cutoff is pretty tight, so you can bet he's not going to be doing much betting and raising without a good hand. He limps after a limper then calls your raise, so that would seem to limit his range to mostly pocket pairs and a few broadway hands like AQ/AJ/KQ. With that in mind, your plan when seeing this flop is to bet until he raises or until you get to showdown. He'll call down with second pair and worse Ax and draws, and he'll only raise with that narrow strip of his range that beats you. Your flop bet size should probably be bigger since it's not going to change anyone's continuing range. On the turn you should go ahead and fire. You might have checked because you are afraid of getting raised, but it's something you shouldn't be afraid of since he's probably never raising when you're ahead. On the river by this point it's fine to bet, but you have to fold to the shove because his raising range is so strong. Basically, he's never raising with AQ or AJ, and there aren't enough missed draws in his range to try to justify it as picking off a draw. All-in-all, I think this hand is played badly because you're scared of folding the best hand.

Hand 2: This is a really really clear fold preflop. This really ties back into the whole being scared of folding the best hand thing. To help reinforce this, keep in mind that AKo has 38% equity against {AK, QQ+}. When you call, you're praying you hit an A or K, and even then you're not always going to be good. Even when you are good, he's not often going to put much money in the pot unless you're way behind.

Hand 3: Preflop I think calling is best to keep the weak button in the hand. I would play my entire continuing range with a call here since I wouldn't be 4-bet bluffing in this spot ever. The flop is sort of interesting since the BB fails to bet into two players on a fairly wet board. I think betting is fine, but I think betting slightly less is better. A bet of say $0.80-0.85 isn't going to get called anymore than a $1 bet here. Once the button calls, it should be time to check/fold it down unless we improve on the turn since he has a pair or draw and simply isn't folding. This hand really shares that theme of being afraid of folding the best hand, except here you never have the best hand except the very few times he shows up with something like J9 or 97.

In general, if you find yourself doing something you know is retardedly -EV like open folding AK, you should take a break and collect yourself because you're not +EV in the game. Also, you shouldn't take such a blanket rule like "don't stack off with top pair" to heart because there are plenty of times when it's appropriate to stack off with top pair. Instead of trying to play by blanket rules, think about the range that your opponent stacks off with and if you're ahead of it. If you are, then go for it. If not, then take a different line that gets some value without getting in stacks. The process is pretty straight-forward, but it takes some practice and a whole lot of effort.

The thematic psychological mistake from these hands is fear of folding the best hand. The reason this is a problem is that correct play requires you to fold the best hand sometimes. Hand #2 is probably the clearest example of this, although in both of the other hands it's sort of the same thing, just a little disguised.

If you want to talk about this more, my AIM is xojessahhox.

I didn't look through the hands or anything...but I did read Spoon's response.

I'd like to stand up and say that I've had a problem (and it often comes back) of fear of folding the best hand. I'm afraid of being bluffed. I hate folding to a possible bluff. It disgusts me that villain may be outplaying me...

...but fuck pride and make moneys.

I'm working on my stationy ways. As I said, this is basically a problem in the past. I'm better at OBJECTIVELY putting villain on a range and not only seeing the range that I want to see (villain must be bluffing). Good luck!

hand 1:
bet more pre, especially OOP. standard for me is 4bb+1 for every limper but i'm popping this one up to .35 or .4 because OOP is way harder and winning the pot preflop is more valuable. i bet more on the flop because its a wet board and we get value villains Ax's. i probably bet 0.7. given villain is pretty nitty i probably check (as you did) the turn for pot control because if the draw completes on the river we can bet/fold easily. as played i'm not folding for 0.75 because it's cheap and he may be trying to take it down with his A7-AQ after you checked. river lead is fine imo. river call is terrible.

hand 2 is bad for the reasons you explained. in an ideal world i fold to the flop 3b because we are drawing near dead to his range, but i probably spewcall on the flop and fold to his inevitable turn bet.

hand 3 i probably don't even "test the water". the only hands i want to fold which they could have are AT-AK and your SPR v BB is allowing him to play his hand perfectly.

i know you know that these are bad plays and why. if i have any worthwhile advice whatsoever it would be taking as much time as you feel you need to decide what the best play is, and erring on the side of caution if you cannot figure out villain's ranges/equity/fold equity in "the heat of the moment". i find some helpful thoughts to use when i get lost in a hand and the timebank is low are:
"is villain doing this with much better/worse?"
"how likely is villain likely to be bluffing/expect me to fold on this board?"

good luck and i hope i helped

^^ some pretty convoluted sentences and grammar going on in that post. i apologise.

For what it's worth, my biggest recurring hit to my bottom line besides laziness is the problem I outlined in my post above.

Also, I think it's easier to tackle this leak once you've identified the fact that you are, basically, afraid to be outplayed. As humans, we're simply wired to hate to be outplayed by another human. Don't let the emotional side of you get in the way of making the moneys.

i'll read spoon's response after i've posted mine - this may be redundant, but whatever. I'm interested in seeing where our thinking differs.

hand 1 - raise more pre, bet flop bigger, bet-fold turn.
hand 2 - foldor call pre are both fine. Flop raise is good, and now fold to the 3-bet = zeebo or something
hand 3 - interesting that your standard raise is 3x not 4x. Try 4x from ep for a while perhaps? You can fold to the squeeze, calling is better without players in position yet to act, you can also jam. Flop is check-fold as played, small bet is maybe ok sometimes with better reads. Turn is absolutely a check-fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Hand 1: The cutoff is pretty tight, so you can bet he's not going to be doing much betting and raising without a good hand. He limps after a limper then calls your raise, so that would seem to limit his range to mostly pocket pairs and a few broadway hands like AQ/AJ/KQ. With that in mind, your plan when seeing this flop is to bet until he raises or until you get to showdown. He'll call down with second pair and worse Ax and draws, and he'll only raise with that narrow strip of his range that beats you. Your flop bet size should probably be bigger since it's not going to change anyone's continuing range.

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I just want to be 100% I understand this. I am getting value of his AQ and AJ, hands because he can't let them go. The reason I want to make it bigger is because IF i am ahead I want to make the most money and if I am behind the really money is going to be lost later? Is that the right thought process.



I have been replaying hand #1 over and over on PokerTracker. Some things you guys said I do not understand. For the last 5k hands I raise religiously 3x+1bb per limper. I know this needs to be refined.

My thought process is why would I raise it more OP? I want to play smaller pots out of position and bigger pots in position, thus raising big here would be counter productive unless I can isolate SB.

I was beat by A5 of spades. I would never in million years put that in his range. What type of adjustment should I make when I see player do something that I didn't expect. I now have to include Axs in his range. What is more important than adjusting my range for this particular player is how do incorporate this idea to ever player, or is that a dangerous way to think?

7% VP over 191 is small sample, but I think enough to make decisions.

that`s messed up.

The single biggest leak micro-stakes players have is not knowing how to fold post-flop. If you can learn to fold, even if it's the best hand sometimes, you win. You don't have to play so weak-tight every time, but if you can't figure out what the most +EV play is (bet/raise/call/fold) then folding is usually the best option. This in turn will help reduce you from tilting and making further bad decisions.

-----Hand #1----

I think you played the hand well until the river. I have only very minor quibles before that. I like rasing a little more than you did PF. I like 4 BB plus one BB for each limper, with three limpers that you puts you at 7bb or 0.35. I like taking down the pot PF as I win the pot with no rake.

On the flop, I'm pretty confident I have the best hand and like to bet about half the pot, more if there is a strong draw. Here we see a flush draw so 2/3 the pot seems about right. I like your flop bet.

The turn card creates three types of hands that are now a problem. Small pocker pairs that are now sets, A-rag two pair, and pair/straight/straight draw hands. On the turn we have signifcant dilemna in not wanting to give free cards, wanting to money against hand like AQ, AJ etc but also not wanting to lose our stack if we are beat. I like betting about 1/3 pot. This makes it easy for hand like AT to call us. Your turn bet was more than that but not an unreasonable bet.

The river card looks like a brick and thus the analysis on the turn applies. The good news is that the flush did not come in. I like either a) making a smallish 1/3p type bet or checking hoping to induce a smallish bluff.

I think your river bet is way too big. All you have is a pair. You are pot committed, probably beat and likely to double him up.

In sum, I think you bet too little early and too much late.

---- Hand #2-----

Whenever there is a 3 bet PF caution lights go on for me. At this level a 3 bet *usually* means AA or KK. These are the only hands where is AK is in really bad shape. You seem to acknowledge a pretty tight range for you opp, extending only a little beyond these two hands. While your opp might have AK or QQ does this justify a call ? I would argue no. In fact, if his hand range included *ONLY* AK & QQ you should fold since you are statistically behind and have no money invested. Unless you think you can dramatically outplay your opp post flop you should fold.

You choose to call.

For analysis I'll include AQ+, TT+ but we are giving a stronger weighting to the tighter AK, QQ+ range of hands. Interesting flop. Initially it looks good, you flopped an A!! However, we hate the Q. We are now behind AA, AQ and QQ. We are drawing to a K against AQ and nearly dead to the other hands. We tie AK and are ahead of KK, JJ and TT. On the one hand I'm not eager to get all my money in here on the other hand the starting (flop) pot is so big it will be hard to avoid --- especially if we are beat. I would try to extract some value while excercsing some pot control.

This is a tricky hand to play. I think that either betting out or checking is ok. Either way we have to think carefully about what his resonse means. How would he play this hand if has AA or QQ ?

You check he bets you raise, he makes a huge ReR. I think your raise was a little on the large side. I read his huge ReR is telling us we are beat. I can't think of any hands we can beat. He could have AK for a chop, but that's not enough.

I would fold here. We can tell based on his play that all the money is going on this hand. We need more than just a pair to play for an entire buy in.

Don't go broke deep stacked with just a pair.




[/b]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by !Luck

I just want to be 100% I understand this. I am getting value of his AQ and AJ, hands because he can't let them go. The reason I want to make it bigger is because IF i am ahead I want to make the most money and if I am behind the really money is going to be lost later? Is that the right thought process.

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The reasoning is that the CO is going to play his range in a way that you can play perfectly against him, even though you are oop (not OP btw). He's generally going to call you down with pair type hands and raise with two pair or overpair type hands or sets so really we can just bet until he raises. If he doesnt raise, we're ahead and expect to win. If he does, we can usually safely fold.

Quote:

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My thought process is why would I raise it more OP? I want to play smaller pots out of position and bigger pots in position, thus raising big here would be counter productive unless I can isolate SB.

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You're right, playing oop sucks, but thats all the more reason to bet larger. We have 3 opponents in the hand, if we only raise to 4x here, then the pot becomes 7x, and the first guy only has to call 3 into 7...if he calls the other guy 3 into 10 and you'll find that these guys actually get odds to play you in position. We want to discourage that as much as possible.

Another thing, our raising range from the sb/bb is really really tight (or so i assume). If this is the case, and since 5nl players dont padjust really, we should be raising as large as we can that still gets a call

Another thing, AK is a hand that gets most of its value from seeing a full 5 cards. With that in mind, the hand is better played when more money goes in pre.

All of the above mean we want to be raising much larger than 4x. In general 3.5x +1bb/limper is the 'rule', but i usually do 4x+1 since i dont see adjustments to it even at 25nl. Doing that, 7x pre is good...but id probably raise larger still since the people here have ranges that do the same thing when playing for 7x vs playing for 9x

Quote:

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I was beat by A5 of spades. I would never in million years put that in his range. What type of adjustment should I make when I see player do something that I didn't expect. I now have to include Axs in his range. What is more important than adjusting my range for this particular player is how do incorporate this idea to ever player, or is that a dangerous way to think?
.

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As soon as anyone does anything you dont expect, you make a note. Id instantly note that this 7/5 has an affinity for limp caling Axs. If he does that, he probably limps some stronger broadways as well (like QTs, JTs) but we cant be sure. To adjust, one thing we can do is value bet hands like AK on Ahi flops without fear at all, since we now know his range can now have alot more Ax's in it that will call fairly large bets pre and post.

As to spreading that read to others...you cant really do that. However, that is NOT to say that 5nl-ers dont have Axs in their limp calling range (i think you'll find that most do). Past that i cant really help.

---Fear of folding the best hand & beyond--

Here is a thinking style that may help you in your fear of folding and beyond. Think probabilistically. If somebody shoves deep stacked and they are bluffing 15% but have the nuts 85% of time I will save money by folding --- IN THE LONG RUN. Therefore, unless I have a great specific read I should fold IN THIS HAND.

There are many math-probabiliy tools and models for thinking about poker. They may also provide a good objective mental approach to the game.

----OOP PF----


There are actually two schools of thought on the appropriate aggresison level when raising PF OOP. Phil Gordon advocates raising MORE when in position and less when out of position. The idea is that you want to play bigger pots when you are stronger. Dan Harrington often argues you should do the opposite, make bigger PFRs when OOP to win the pot NOW.

It might be possible to resolve the paradox based on the PF folding likelihood. When high DH's approach makes sense, when low PGs works better.

JKDS,

Thanks. I am going to incorporate that into my game. But I see exactly what you mean. I am going to go put in 1k hands and see how things work out.

Thanks for the help.