25NL... tough spot or ez fold?

utg is a bit of a maniac so it is not him im worried about, the other dude is like a weak-tight badish player who gets the game. am i ever not facing a retardly played 55/77 here? if so he basically played it the only way that can possibly get me to toss the set lol...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

SB ($27.05)
BB ($18.35)
UTG ($16.15)
MP ($24.30)
CO ($40.85)
Hero (Button) ($52.20)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG calls $0.25, MP calls $0.25, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.75, SB calls $0.65, 1 fold, UTG calls $0.50, MP calls $0.50

Flop: ($3.25) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (4 players)
SB checks, UTG bets $0.75, MP calls $0.75, Hero raises to $4, 1 fold, UTG calls $3.25, MP calls $3.25

Turn: ($15.25) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
UTG bets $11.40 (All-In), MP calls $11.40

Total pot: $38.05

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...in-t87954.html

I get that I should put him on a range, my problem is figuring out if that range has anything other than 55 & 77 in it...

I don't think we need to find a fold here, even if there are scenarios where we don't have huge equity.

You definitely need to put thought into a range for MP here based on the reads you have. If this guy is weak/passive/bad enough to limp 77 behind an even worse player, then what do you think he'd do with KsJs? QsJs? JsTs, etc? Fold any of those pre? If anything, having a limper already may make him happier to limp in. Do you think that increases the number of suited spades he can have? Then what would he do with those hands on and after the flop? Fold or call? The turn is barely a 2/3 psb, he's not going to shove over a draw on the turn, so do you think he's going to fold or call? The next card could be a spade!

Tbh, in terms of lines that would make me think, I'd be less happy if villain flatted the flop twice and then shoved over utg on the turn than how the hand played out. The difference being that his hand would then look a lot more like something strong than a draw.

Raise more pre or limp behind yourself. Don't get stuck between because your raise won't serve the purpose of thinning the crowd, it'll do the opposite.

Ya I agree the pfr was bad, dumb sizing. He would def limp kjs, jts, qjs preflop but I just cant see him insta calling an all in on the turn with a hand like that, he seems so passive, Id atleast expect him to think about it

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Originally Posted by eragotte

Ya I agree the pfr was bad, dumb sizing. He would def limp kjs, jts, qjs preflop but I just cant see him insta calling an all in on the turn with a hand like that, he seems so passive, Id atleast expect him to think about it

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How quickly did he call the donk lead and raise on the flop? Is it comparable to how quickly he acted on the turn?

insta called every bet, i guess if he is slow playing and trying to draw me in on the turn you would think he would be smart to time bank or something rather than make it look like an easy call

Post a range and we'll go from there. If you do that we can help refine your thought process. If you literally cannot think of any hands then I'd refer you to the Beginner's Digest.

Eh, this is sort of a close one, but I would usually still lean on the call side. You said yourself he is a donk, there is a very wide range he could be doing this with, including tptk's and overpairs. Small possibility of straight here, but I would still call the last $11

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Originally Posted by eragotte

I get that I should put him on a range, my problem is figuring out if that range has anything other than 55 & 77 in it...

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fwiw, even 99 seems more likely than 77/55. putting this passive of a line on 6 hand combinations without any more reads than what you gave just doesn't seem like it's very often going to be satisfactory.

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Originally Posted by surviva316

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eragotte

I get that I should put him on a range, my problem is figuring out if that range has anything other than 55 & 77 in it...

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fwiw, even 99 seems more likely than 77/55. putting this passive of a line on 6 hand combinations without any more reads than what you gave just doesn't seem like it's very often going to be satisfactory.

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Agreed. Changes in momentum are usually changes in hand strength. Could be 68. This could even be something like A :spade: 9 :spade:.

If youre going to raise preflop make it way bigger though. $1.25 seems good? The vast majority of times you will be trying to steal it on the flop/turn rather than hitting a set. A bigger raise will make it more likely to be heads up and stealable, and will build a bigger pot (hopefully headsup vs the maniac) for you to steal. As a minor aside you defintly want to be raising bigger with premium hands in this spot, and varying your raise size based on hand strength isnt necessarily a good idea if you have observant players at your table.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

Post a range and we'll go from there. If you do that we can help refine your thought process. If you literally cannot think of any hands then I'd refer you to the Beginner's Digest.

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Which Digest article talks about how to put someone on a range?

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i would still call the last $11

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its not an all in for him fyi

Also for people still saying put him on a range my point was I dont see a lot of hands to put in his range, I think he folds any As but As9s some I guess thats there, 99 is a possibility but I highly discount it after the instacall, 55, 77 possible... I highly doubt TT to AA

without putting it through pokerstove Im sure i cant call that bet vs a 55 77 99 As9s range...

anyways I shipped he called with 77, the original all in had 9s8s... i think i should have got off it but apparently a lot of ppl disagree

Quote:

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i would still call the last $11

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its not an all in for him fyi

Also for people still saying put him on a range my point was I dont see a lot of hands to put in his range, I think he folds any AsXs but As9s sometimes... I guess thats in the range, 99 is a possibility, 55, 77 possible... I highly doubt TT to AA

without putting it through pokerstove Im sure i cant call that bet vs a 55 77 99 As9s range...

anyways I shipped he called with 77, the original all in had 9s8s... i think i should have got off it but apparently a lot of ppl disagree

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

Post a range and we'll go from there. If you do that we can help refine your thought process. If you literally cannot think of any hands then I'd refer you to the Beginner's Digest.

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Which Digest article talks about how to put someone on a range?

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Sorry, I spoke in error. The articles I meant are in the Poker Articles section, where you can have ranges explained by one of the best high stakes online players in the world atm, ISF. There are also a number of articles of ranges all throughout these forums. Robb has a good collection of them if I remember correctly. There are also numerous opportunities to discuss ranges in the FTR IRC room, if you find it advantageous to do so. If you need any more information please let me know.

kfaess, if you stove it (remembering there are 3 ppl in this hand) the answer is probably pretty clear here.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by surviva316

Quote:

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Originally Posted by eragotte

I get that I should put him on a range, my problem is figuring out if that range has anything other than 55 & 77 in it...

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fwiw, even 99 seems more likely than 77/55. putting this passive of a line on 6 hand combinations without any more reads than what you gave just doesn't seem like it's very often going to be satisfactory.

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Since UTG is a maniac MP will probably going flat any decent pair to let him spew off his stack but I think MP's range for calling Hero's raise is fairly narrow because he's weak.

Still I'd probably call and write it off as a cooler if he has a better set.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

Post a range and we'll go from there. If you do that we can help refine your thought process. If you literally cannot think of any hands then I'd refer you to the Beginner's Digest.

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Which Digest article talks about how to put someone on a range?

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Sorry, I spoke in error. The articles I meant are in the Poker Articles section, where you can have ranges explained by one of the best high stakes online players in the world atm, ISF. There are also a number of articles of ranges all throughout these forums. Robb has a good collection of them if I remember correctly. There are also numerous opportunities to discuss ranges in the FTR IRC room, if you find it advantageous to do so. If you need any more information please let me know.

kfaess, if you stove it (remembering there are 3 ppl in this hand) the answer is probably pretty clear here.

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huh?? I'm assuming you got me confused with someone else?

Haha yea sorry kfaess, I meant the OP. I'll leave now.

Agree with PF bet-sizing critiques but Lol @ Folding this, villains can be easily following this line with TT+ and 2 Pairs, even A7 and NFD sometimes.

I pay off higher sets and made straights in this hand.

Get more money in pre-flop. At least $1.

Flop Trips get paid - i read on another post a long time ago.... Um don't get in the habit of folding sets. Your never going to be good enough to know when he has a set. He could have a ton of hands. Overpair, flopped 2-pair, flush or straight draws or both like 3-4s for example. I like to get it all in on the turn with my sets. Set over set sucks but thats why you played the 2-2..... and you got what you wanted... so shove and pray(or insta-call and pray).

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Originally Posted by Wikkiwikki

..you got what you wanted... so shove and pray(or insta-call and pray).

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Praying is -EV

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sasquach991

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Illfavor

Post a range and we'll go from there. If you do that we can help refine your thought process. If you literally cannot think of any hands then I'd refer you to the Beginner's Digest.

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Which Digest article talks about how to put someone on a range?

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Sorry, I spoke in error. The articles I meant are in the Poker Articles section, where you can have ranges explained by one of the best high stakes online players in the world atm, ISF. There are also a number of articles of ranges all throughout these forums. Robb has a good collection of them if I remember correctly. There are also numerous opportunities to discuss ranges in the FTR IRC room, if you find it advantageous to do so.

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I don't know about a collection, but I have a "how to get started learning to put ppl on ranges" thread here:

Practicing Ranges

Reading ISF's digest articles are a good way to learn ranges. The best way is practicing them A LOT like the thread above suggests.

I am assuming you called and one of them had a straight or a set. It'll happen. You'll also flop top set at some point and some other poor bastard will have a lower one. It happens.

I am not sure I have ever folded a set on the turn.. unless it was 4 to the flush and there are 3+ peeps in the pot and the math sucks.

i shoved saying he has 77 or 55 but fuck him and he had 77, i dont really think it was a bad play after this board because there are prolly a ton of FDs in his range. that said i do think it is closer than ppl say just because he never has a straight draw or jj-aa based on my reads .