5NL Ammo

Ok, I'm beginning to hold my own at 5NL. I've figured out the biggest differences from 2NL.

1. Nobody c-bet at 2NL. People just bet their hands.

2. Since 1. never occurred, nobody ever fired a double-barrel.

There are other strategies that work better at this new level such as value betting strong, non-made hands and shoving scare cards on the turn, etc., but these are really just variations on the two above points.

Learn these strats and 5NL becomes much clearer.

Also, I tried to post a hand of such immortal nuts on my last hand of the evening, but the Hand Converter kept saying, "Can't determine file format." WTFO?

What??? lol
thats a terrible summary of $2NL! I play $2NL and i c-bet a lot, and when I feel like it will work I will double barrell! But congrats at $5NL :)

Yeah, there are definitely players at 2NL who employ those strategies. If you use these regularly, then you'll have a good go at 5NL whenever your BR allows.

I simply meant you don't need to c-bet or 2-barrel at 2NL to succeed. Just bet your big hands and watch them ship it.

Most people here said the difference from 2-5NL was negligible, and from the parspective of a 10NL player perhaps they're right. I found the aggression and barrel-firing to be a big difference.

yh true u just have to play ABC to win, but I feel the c-betting especially in position is +ev at $2NL as if will normally fold if they have nothing, or raise or call if have something, and will defo add to your profit.

Continuation betting on the flop (also known as second street) in no-limit Texas Hold'em is a powerful strategy.

don't worry about the differences between 2nl and 5nl. i'm glad you're "starting to hold your own," but there's so much more out there in the wide world of poker left to be learned than just cbetting and double barrelling, so unless you're winrate gets over like 20 over a 10k sample, i wouldn't even begin to feel satisfied with your game

(by the 20BB/100 thing, don't actually aim for that mark 'cause you're so unlikely to do that until you move up a bunch of limits and then go back down to dick around, and even if you get to that mark, you still shouldn't be satisfied with your game because in the grand scheme of things, 5nl opponents are so straightforward and do very little to test anything but your most standard of knowledge that it only takes level 3 thinking to completely and absolutely destroy them...end of really long sentence.)

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Originally Posted by scfc_andy15

What??? lol
thats a terrible summary of $2NL! I play $2NL and i c-bet a lot, and when I feel like it will work I will double barrell! But congrats at $5NL :)

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I'm pretty sure I had cbet 100% of the time vs 1 opponent and i'd say 80% of the time vs 2, more than that i was alot more careful lol
so ya, thanks for folding.

Those are very general assumptions. You can't expect every player on 5NL to play the same. Some Cbet every time, some never Cbet, some never believe Cbets. The only thing you can assume is that the players don't know what are good flops to Cbet and what aren't.

I am beginning to wonder if 5NL can be beaten. Just began playing online after a long sabbatical visa vi UIGEA. And started over at micro stakes. Have only played about 1,800 hands and am down $21!

Now the money isn't the issue, of course. It just seems on horrendous beat after another is followed by a couple hundred hands of treading water. I knew I wasn't good but I didn't think I stunk! but apparently I do :oops:

Stats below...
http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...ck_summary.png

I would post a graph but it is appalling ...

I'm fairly sure 5nl can be beaten ;).

4 buyins down over 1.7k hands is nothing really.

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

I'm fairly sure 5nl can be beaten ;).

4 buyins down over 1.7k hands is nothing really.

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not too mention you're running 26/15 at micro FR. run 12/8, flop sets, profit imo

i nosedived about 14 buy ins at 5NL when i started LOL that as about 5k hands. now i'm up 10 BI's after 14k

There is an interesting stat in PT3 if I understand it. Overall I took in $93 but gave back $110 + Rake. some of that is attributed to some really ugly beats when I stack someone can't do anything about that.

1. over playing two pair or even a pair at times
2. folding to a LAG with over cards on the board. Still having trouble putting people in a range or on a hand - hoping to get better at that.
3. and yes, am playing too many hands out of position - but getting better. used to be VPIP 30+, PFR 20+, etc.

To give you an idea of how things have been going I was in a hand where it was just the two blinds. I was in SB with 62o and called the BB. BB checked. We checked to the turn with the board

Code:

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KJ668

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No flushes. Long story short we got all in with similar stacks by the river. Villain had 68o :shock:

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not too mention you're running 26/15 at micro FR. run 12/8, flop sets, profit imo

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Getting my ass kicked when I have sets: straights, flushes, full houses.
Really good to hear 4BI not bad - yet :roll:
Have been watching the videos and reading stuff here which is a help. Thanks again.

One other thing that I find interesting about your stats is the Fold To Steal %. Clearly, you are defending your blinds with a very wide range.

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Originally Posted by surviva316

not too mention you're running 26/15 at micro FR. run 12/8, flop sets, profit imo

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beg to differ it can be done with those stats. this was me last month at 5nl on Full tilt.blinds are slightly affected as I'll play headsup for a bit when a table breaks or starts so that theres probably 300 hands of headsup play in there.Question is though , if you are playing 25/15 are ou playing positionally or arethey the same stats across all positions.

whilst my blind stats may look horrible folding them all would have resulted in -33$ in SB and $-85.80 in the big blind.

http://img262.imageshack.us/img262/1517/oct5nlstats.jpg
http://img132.imageshack.us/img132/6733/oct5nl.jpg

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...ons_112009.png

http://i683.photobucket.com/albums/v...art_112009.png

Chart is month of November. I single table mostly and have time only a couple days a week I play...

Need to learn how to turn that chart upside down :cry: :lol:

big difference between your stats and mine is that you are looser in mid positions and big gaps between your vpip and pfr in the positions. If you got good hands raise don't limp in , if its been raised tighten up your calling range so the more marginal hands that you would have raised if it was unopened to you now need to be stronger. Depending on your opponent you can then consider 3 betting.
Better to tighten up in all positions and only open up your ranges on the CO and Button.

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Originally Posted by Keith_MM

big difference between your stats and mine is that you are looser in mid positions and big gaps between your vpip and pfr in the positions. If you got good hands raise don't limp in , if its been raised tighten up your calling range so the more marginal hands that you would have raised if it was unopened to you now need to be stronger. Depending on your opponent you can then consider 3 betting.
Better to tighten up in all positions and only open up your ranges on the CO and Button.

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This particular list of stats grouping in PT is a bit confusing: the sort order is wrong in that it shouldn't be { Button, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, SB, BB } but {SB, BB, 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, Button } is there a way to change this?

Anyway, I am assuming you are telling me I should arrange my range of hands to play from position to position such that will allow me to have similar VPIP|PFR straight through all positions; the difference being in LP? It seems to me that is what I would extrapolate from your percentages.

I don't mean this to be in any way demeaning, but all you have to do to beat NL5 is sit there and wait for people to give you their money. This is only a mild exaggeration. To be more specific, people will pay you off often enough when you get big hands to be profitable as long as you don't give too much back by trying to show yourself how well you can play.

So, ABC TAG poker will win quite nicely over a reasonable amount of play. In theory, you can make more by identifying and pushing small edges, but it raises your variance, and isn't a skill many people at micro- and low levels are strong at. So in practice, most of us, myself included, are probably better served sticking to relatively straightforward poker.

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I don't mean this to be in any way demeaning

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I appreciate the humility. I am not one who is easily offended and given my track record (stats) I definitely am in need of criticisms and in no position to be sensitive. Any and all such is welcome.

I do try to push too hard. I think I try 'tournament tactics' too often and am reigning in that behavior rapidly. I am attempting to become a better cash game player having played mostly tourneys online and B&M - mostly B&M.

Having said that, I have a major weakness concerning reading play and people. A weakness that cost me yesterday. I was in a live tourney at a local casino with 292 entrants where I finished 46th. I have no doubt I folded some hands I shouldn't have and dodged at least one errant all in and sucked out after a bad read on my part. But that is poker I guess...

Thanks

[quote="astrodon"]I am beginning to wonder if 5NL can be beaten. It can! My guess is your graph looks like an electrocardiogram; many VERY high peaks and valleys with long gradual upward trends inbetween. If you go back and genuinely evaluate the couple of hands responsible for the High Peaks and the Low Valleys, you'll see that often, in both peaks and valleys, you won or lost those big pots when you were a HUGE favorite ( with a few of your own suck outs tossed in for good measure of course). But as long as inbetween those peaks and valleys there is a steady upward trend, I think you'll be just fine! Your numbers suggest you'll be fine as well. Sounds like your loosing your coin tosses right now, you'll get yours soon enough, hang in there!

Cheers!