5NL: TPGK OOP VS. CI

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10-23-2009, 05:52 PM
BennyLaRue

5NL: TPGK OOP VS. CI

UTG (39/17/1.1) and MP3 (88/6/0.9) were both pretty terrible. The other two opps were extremely passive, so I knew it would be easy for me to tell where I was at against them.

I'm trying to cut down on overlimping but getting 9:1 against these players, I saw this as a decent chance to spike and isolate one of the idiots post-flop. Comments on all streets?

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.05 BB (9 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($10)
Button ($4.77)
Hero (SB) ($5.90)
BB ($5.77)
UTG ($7.11)
UTG+1 ($6.16)
MP1 ($2.48)
MP2 ($6.69)
MP3 ($3.35)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
UTG calls $0.05, 2 folds, MP2 calls $0.05, MP3 calls $0.05, CO calls $0.05, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.03, BB checks

Flop: ($0.30) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (6 players)
Hero bets $0.25, 3 folds, MP3 raises $0.90, 1 fold, Hero raises $2.35, MP3 calls $1.70

Turn: ($5.50) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.70, MP3 calls $0.70 (All-In)

River: ($6.90) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $6.90
10-23-2009, 06:18 PM
eternal

The UTG limp is suspicious, I would raise their limps just to find out if he's getting tricky or just donklimping. Shove flop because of the fd since your oop, don't want any scare cards coming out that you don't know what to do with. If he has the set of 2's or 4's thats just a cooler. I feel like most of his range is kx, not including k2 or k4 with a fd possibly...get it in. Well played postflop imo.
10-23-2009, 07:53 PM
Hoopy

Get it in on the flop if you can, no point leaving that small amount of money behind.

How sure of your read were you as that's a strong line to take with TPGK.
10-23-2009, 08:22 PM
nonofyobiz

How many hands were those stats based on?
I agree (sort of) with shoving the flop, if you're going to re raise that amount then it's with the intention of getting it all in anyway. I think your mostly ahead of all his range unless he played his AA, KK, AK like a complete donk (which happens lol)

Would it be wrong to flat call the flop and check call the rest of the way....or if he checks the turn put out a value bet on river???

What i think his flop range is ...
Kx diamonds expect 2 & 4
Ax diamonds expect 2 & 4
53d
and AA, KK -MAYBE QQ, JJ b/c sometimes these guys just can't let them go

Is this a fair range??

Board: 4d Ks 2d
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 55.135% 53.88% 01.25% 22937 534.00 { JJ+, 44, 22, AdKd, AdQd, AdJd, AdTd, Ad9d, Ad8d, Ad7d, Ad6d, Ad5d, Ad3d, KdQd, KdJd, KcTc, KdTd, Kd9d, Kd8d, Kd7d, Kd6d, Kd5d, Kh5h, Kd3d, 5d3d }
Hand 1: 44.865% 43.61% 01.25% 18565 534.00 { KcJs }
10-23-2009, 09:14 PM
BennyLaRue

Quote:

Originally Posted by HoopyDude

How sure of your read were you as that's a strong line to take with TPGK.

This was only 32 hands but his 88% VPIP meant I got to see him play 28 hands post-flop, or just as many as you'd see a more reasonable player play over 100 hands. I don't play with more HUD stats than that, but I knew anecdotally that he didn't like folding the flop. An AF of 0.9 from a player playing 88% of hands and rarely folding the flop is actually really aggressive and many of his bets and raises must have been outright bullshit or semi-bluffs.

Yeah, you guys are right, should have shipped after the flop re-raise.
10-24-2009, 05:46 AM
Belt

Guy is 88/6... Even for 30 hands of a sample size is more than enough to say that this guy is loose passive and post-flop AF is more of a proof for this. Doesn't it look even a little suspicious for this guy to raise our pot sized bet?

Yes his range includes some worse Ks, Kxdd, flush and straight draws but it also includes better Ks, 2prs and sets... When a passive opponent decides to raise my psb on the flop I usually wouldn't be willing to stack of with top pair middle kicker.

I would call and re-evaluate the turn.
10-24-2009, 10:07 AM
BennyLaRue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belt

Even for 30 hands of a sample size is more than enough to say that this guy is loose passive and post-flop AF is more of a proof for this.

It would be valuable here to have looked at his AF by street but I don't have it on my HUD. He was loose-passive pre, but loose-aggro post and I'll tell you why I'm thinking that.

Like I said, he was involved in many hands past the flop. Let's even be conservative and say he saw a turn with half the hands he saw a flop with, which is at least 44% of possible holdings. The post-flop AF of 0.9 says he's betting or raising nearly half the hands where he puts money in or around 21% of all possible holdings. He bets or raises with more hands than are in my entire pre-flop range.

With such a huge range, he's probably got every single two-diamond combination in there and probably some straight draws. If he's drawing, do you still think it's cool to call his initial raise and evaluate the turn?
10-24-2009, 10:54 AM
inV1NCEble

-I wouldn't wory about the UTGlimp, pretty standart on the NL

-Aren't you scaring him of by your flopRR. I mean yeah he's a donk but you can't expect him to call with mutch worse here? And if you shove on a save turncard you're almost certain to get his money in, with crap like Kx right?

(please correct me if that's bullshit)
10-24-2009, 11:08 AM
Belt

Quote:

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

He was loose-passive pre, but loose-aggro post

Of course, if that's your read then getting the money in asap is the way to go.

What confuses me is if this guy raises every draw in his range as well as his made hands what the hell is he calling with? After all he calls more than he raises...
10-24-2009, 11:24 AM
BennyLaRue

Quote:

Originally Posted by Belt

What confuses me is if this guy raises every draw in his range as well as his made hands what the hell is he calling with?

Bottom pair or underpairs? Overcards? Gutshots?
10-24-2009, 11:49 AM
Belt

Quote:

Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

Like I said, he was involved in many hands past the flop. Let's even be conservative and say he saw a turn with half the hands he saw a flop with, which is at least 44% of possible holdings. The post-flop AF of 0.9 says he's betting or raising nearly half the hands where he puts money in or around 21% of all possible holdings. He bets or raises with more hands than are in my entire pre-flop range.

With such a huge range, he's probably got every single two-diamond combination in there and probably some straight draws. If he's drawing, do you still think it's cool to call his initial raise and evaluate the turn?

What ever two cards you see a flop with has a chance of hitting something nearly 30%... Of course with a VPIP of 88% he will still have some thrashy hands even when he hits... If he sees a turn with half of the hands he sees a flop then he is betting or raising about 20% of his hands. And if he only bets or raises something like 20% then i guess its safe to assume that he is raising with his legitimate hands. Also this means he is calling with ~25% that is nearly half of the flops he plays...

Don't get me wrong, with your read you stated above, you played it fine. And if I can convince myself that he is drawing then I would play the same. I'm just saying that I can't convince myself that he raises with all his draws, therefore I would prefer to take a different line. I would have called the flop, c/c safe turns (which doesn't include diamonds or an A), c/f the others. And depending on what happened in the turn I would c/f or b/f the river...