OBAMA! CHANGE!

Printable View

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

10-09-2009, 01:53 PM
bigred

OBAMA! CHANGE!

I'm not on the Nobel committee so I'm probably not the most apt to decide who deserves the award and who doesn't. I'd argue everyone else on facebook, twitter, etc aren't on that committee as well...maybe you are and sworn to secrecy [/sarcasm].

What I'd like to discuss is my disappointment in the overall reaction of my fellow citizens. Our leader was chosen as a beacon of hope for the future of this world. Why is this so terrible? Has this bipartisan lens where we're literally waiting to jump on any opportunity to hate those who oppose our views really come this far?
10-09-2009, 01:55 PM
ilikeaces86

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/new...for_what_.html

What did he do to deserve the award?
10-09-2009, 01:57 PM
a500lbgorilla

He does have an entire news empire that's historically (over the last year) reacted the same way: FCK OBAMA

Too much noise in American politics today. Way too much noise.
10-09-2009, 01:57 PM
ilikeaces86

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/new...cle6867711.ece

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-a...as-nobel-farce
10-09-2009, 01:58 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

He does have an entire news empire that's historically (over the last year) reacted the same way: FCK OBAMA

Too much noise in American politics today. Way too much noise.

Re: Liberal News Media. The idea that the media is liberally biased was developed by previously mentioned news empire. Love yah, Rupert Murdoc.
10-09-2009, 02:00 PM
a500lbgorilla

And yah, when I heard he got a nobel prize, I laughed.

Bombing the moon was much cooler. But in his shoes, I would have declined. He had an awesome opportunity to be like, "bitch, give me awards when I get my work done. I've got shit to do."
10-09-2009, 02:07 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

But in his shoes, I would have declined. He had an awesome opportunity to be like, "bitch, give me awards when I get my work done. I've got shit to do."

^^ This I like.

I agree it's all a little silly considering he hasn't done anything yet besides a change of tone (which doesn't count as "doing" as much as it does "saying"...) But meh... the Norwegians can do whatever they want with their trophies...
10-09-2009, 02:14 PM
Ragnar4

It really is too bad, I mean I'm nto a Dem, nor am I a Rep, but I voted Obama because I thought he presented the case in a way that we would really see some change.

But his promises have all taken far too long to motivate. Typically when a president comes in, all of the things he promises are done almost too fast, instead of at a ponderous pace. I almost wonder if he's doing too much talking and not enough acting.

I mean really, I could clear out gitmo in 2 months. ME. He should have been able to fast track that sucker in 2 weeks. Taliban threat taken care of, straw man promise, it will never happen. Out of Iraq in 16 months? This was extremely important to me, if at 16 monhts 2 days we aren't out, he won't be getting another vote from me.

I really feel like he's only accomplished being in the whitehouse, which in itself is a pretty historic occasion, but why haven't other presidents recieved a nobel prize? Clinton had a greater impact in his first 12 months, so did Carter.

Race card time, Being nominated to the whitehouse is a big thing, the fact that he's black is also huuuuudge, BUT, he's fighting for equality. True equality would have had each and every person in the world go meh.. a black man's in the white house.. whoopteedoo. He's fighting for equality, so you need to practice like you play!!!
10-09-2009, 02:14 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And yah, when I heard he got a nobel prize, I laughed.

Bombing the moon was much cooler. But in his shoes, I would have declined. He had an awesome opportunity to be like, "bitch, give me awards when I get my work done. I've got shit to do."

LOL, who in their right mind would decline a Nobel prize? I think that would be disastrous.

Like I said, my point wasn't to debate and whine about the award. I don't like to dwell on the past. While those articles probably represent popular American sentiment (especially towards the right) not a single one of them was on the Nobel committee or can influence the decision that was made. Please create another thread if you want to debate Obama's Merits for the award.

It's more about how we go forward with this. Let's be honest, America's image has been shit after 8 years of Cowboy Foreign Affairs by Bush. The world hates us. Now they're giving our president a nobel peace prize? I think this is a great sign for the future world politics. Europe is saying let's move forward with this fresh start in a positive light.
10-09-2009, 02:17 PM
ilikeaces86

Rilla I have read the book "The myth of the liberal media." by Edward H Reader. His idea that since media outlets are owned by commercial entities they are not liberally biased is retarded. While the owners and editors of some entities may be elite wealthy people they aren't automatically conservative. He also points out that the sole fact that they are owned by commercial entities that are driver by profit is reason to believe that they will not contain liberal bias. The last time I checked companies like GE, IBM, BOA and many others were lining up endorsing the green movement and government regulation. These are companies motivated by profiting for their shareholders but they have decided to reach their profit goals their best bet is to accept the regulations and requirements of big government and embrace the handouts and tax credits that go along with that. The fact is an overwhelming portion of editors and journalists are extremely liberal and their liberal world view inevitably influences their reporting of the news.
10-09-2009, 02:24 PM
yourfather

Seriously how is this a bad thing? He's essentially the most important person in the world and is changing the way the US handles foreign affairs and is stepping up diplomatic efforts in many areas where previous leaders used intimidation/force/money etc. Also he is planning on ending a retarded war he did not start, closing GB etc. Yadda. Yadda lobster bisque can't convice people on political issues I guess.
10-09-2009, 02:25 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by yourfather

Seriously how is this a bad thing? He's essentially the most important person in the world and is changing the way the US handles foreign affairs and is stepping up diplomatic efforts in many areas where previous leaders used intimidation/force/money etc. Also he is planning on ending a retarded war he did not start, closing GB etc. Yadda. Yadda lobster bisque can't convice people on political issues I guess.

THANK YOU
10-09-2009, 02:28 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

It's more about how we go forward with this. Let's be honest, America's image has been shit after 8 years of Cowboy Foreign Affairs by Bush. The world hates us. Now they're giving our president a nobel peace prize? I think this is a great sign for the future world politics. Europe is saying let's move forward with this fresh start in a positive light.

While I'm all for the strengthening of the european love fest, two things come to mind in terms of what that really means...
1. Which of the major global problems have the europeans been able to solve over the past 50 years? They did get themselves (mostly) a single currency, and maybe nudging Turkey out of the stone age w/ the carrot of EU membership.... but N. Korea and nukes? Russia and the former soviet sphere? The Israelis & Palestinians? Now Iran? Now granted... they haven't run around creating many problems either. But not sure having the euros happy or unhappy with who we have in the white house really has much of an impact on anything.
2. On the other hand, strengthening relationship w/ the BRICs, key middle east states (syria, Iran), Latin America power centers (Chile, Argentina, Venezuala, Honduras) and emerging APAC powers (vietnam, south korea, Malaysia) would have some real impact on solving todays issues and helping to stabilize against tomorrows. However that requires getting into bed in varying degrees with some pretty unsavory dudes. And my guess is they don't give a sh!t whether Obama got the trophy or not...
10-09-2009, 02:29 PM
ilikeaces86

yourfather you are looking at foreign policy through a misguided lens. The goal of foreign policy should be to promote the interests of the USA. If that means using intimidation,force.money then so be it. But history has repeatedly shown that playing nice with dictators and nut jobs does not work. All they respect is force and the threat of force. Appeasement and accommodation while usually used with good intentions leads to war while the building up of force and the threat of force usually leads to peace. This seems counter intuitive but the best way to keep the peace is from a position of power.
10-09-2009, 02:35 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

It's more about how we go forward with this. Let's be honest, America's image has been shit after 8 years of Cowboy Foreign Affairs by Bush. The world hates us. Now they're giving our president a nobel peace prize? I think this is a great sign for the future world politics. Europe is saying let's move forward with this fresh start in a positive light.

While I'm all for the strengthening of the european love fest, two things come to mind in terms of what that really means...
1. Which of the major global problems have the europeans been able to solve over the past 50 years? They did get themselves (mostly) a single currency, and maybe nudging Turkey out of the stone age w/ the carrot of EU membership.... but N. Korea and nukes? Russia and the former soviet sphere? The Israelis & Palestinians? Now Iran? Now granted... they haven't run around creating many problems either. But not sure having the euros happy or unhappy with who we have in the white house really has much of an impact on anything.
2. On the other hand, strengthening relationship w/ the BRICs, key middle east states (syria, Iran), Latin America power centers (Chile, Argentina, Venezuala, Honduras) and emerging APAC powers (vietnam, south korea, Malaysia) would have some real impact on solving todays issues and helping to stabilize against tomorrows. However that requires getting into bed in varying degrees with some pretty unsavory dudes. And my guess is they don't give a sh!t whether Obama got the trophy or not...

These are excellent points and I am in agreement with you. My point is that we can't police the world alone and any vote of confidence we can get from distanced friends is great. Maybe Europe hasn't done a lot but it's better to have them giving us a vote of confidence then not. We need to take what we can get.
10-09-2009, 02:39 PM
yourfather

Aces, Maybe I used the term foreign policy incorrectly but surely you understand what I meant. Second, I don't necessarily disagree with your above post but force should not be the default reaction as it has been in the past (see Iraq). And there are plenty of liberals in the media but the media is def. not overwhelmingly liberal as a whole. Those companies embrace green shit etc cuz it makes them look good and gets them tax cuts, not cuz they are liberal usually.
10-09-2009, 02:46 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

yourfather you are looking at foreign policy through a misguided lens. The goal of foreign policy should be to promote the interests of the USA. If that means using intimidation,force.money then so be it. But history has repeatedly shown that playing nice with dictators and nut jobs does not work. All they respect is force and the threat of force. Appeasement and accommodation while usually used with good intentions leads to war while the building up of force and the threat of force usually leads to peace. This seems counter intuitive but the best way to keep the peace is from a position of power.

Actually, self interest is the best way to keep the peace. And in an increasingly global economy, the power of brute force (whatever side of the moral equation you fall on) is just increasingly less effective. Economic power is increasingly effective. 1) Countries w/ strong economies are far less to prone to civil unrest, meaning odds of becoming a failed state are far lower. 2) Countries that have strong global economic ties are much less likely to jeopardize those ties by going to war with someone (i.e India and Pakistan stepped away from each other a few years back mostly because neither wanted to risk becoming an economic pariah).

Your always going to have terrorists, altho' one man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter - and we should've learned from the Iraq & Afghanistan the limits of military intervention (and their only 2 of dozens of places that we're not happy about...). Our best hope long term isn't preaching democracy or threatening with shock and awe... it's bringing the rest of the world into the global economy as fast and furiously as we possibly can.
10-09-2009, 02:47 PM
kevster

He's essentially got this for reversing the Bush Administration's foreign policy and showing a willingness to work with countries rather than say "fuck 'em all, we're going to do what we want anyway".

This says more about the Bush Admin than it does Obama's.
10-09-2009, 02:48 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

We need to take what we can get.

How do you think I ever got laid as a kid? :shock:
10-09-2009, 02:49 PM
boost

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

yourfather you are looking at foreign policy through a misguided lens. The goal of foreign policy should be to promote the interests of the USA. If that means using intimidation,force.money then so be it. But history has repeatedly shown that playing nice with dictators and nut jobs does not work. All they respect is force and the threat of force. Appeasement and accommodation while usually used with good intentions leads to war while the building up of force and the threat of force usually leads to peace. This seems counter intuitive but the best way to keep the peace is from a position of power.

I completely agree, that strategy hasnt back fired on us or anything over in the middle east.. :roll:

Seriously though I can see where you are coming from, but we cant just go around bullying the world forever. If we really want to get down to the essence of foreign policy, its all about resources. If we really can develop efficient, renewable, and sustainable resources then pretty much all of our foreign policy woes vanish. I know youre probably the one rolling your eyes now, but I think this is a pretty clear alternative to the bully mentality.
10-09-2009, 02:53 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Rilla I have read the book "The myth of the liberal media." by Edward H Reader. His idea that since media outlets are owned by commercial entities they are not liberally biased is retarded. While the owners and editors of some entities may be elite wealthy people they aren't automatically conservative. He also points out that the sole fact that they are owned by commercial entities that are driver by profit is reason to believe that they will not contain liberal bias. The last time I checked companies like GE, IBM, BOA and many others were lining up endorsing the green movement and government regulation. These are companies motivated by profiting for their shareholders but they have decided to reach their profit goals their best bet is to accept the regulations and requirements of big government and embrace the handouts and tax credits that go along with that. The fact is an overwhelming portion of editors and journalists are extremely liberal and their liberal world view inevitably influences their reporting of the news.

My view is this. You can see the conservative bias in News Corp. It's become painfully obvious since we made the switch to Obama. And the conservatives in power do nothing but bow to talk radio and fox news. If the leaders of the conservatives are going to just shrug and say "all you need to know is Fox News" then you know you simply cant trust them as they don't respect us. Until someone in the Republican party steps up and says, "Y'know Bill O'Reily, Sean Hannity, Glenn Beck, thanks for the support, but you all need to shut up now and let the leaders lead." I'm giving them 0 support. So if there is a liberal media, I don't notice it because I've stopped paying attention to anything other than the talk radio I catch in my car. And I mostly just saying things like "God... Rush/Sean/Glenn, I guess I'd say/do it too for 20 mil a year." But I've really lost touch with American political system. So I'm just gonna keep making my jokes and hoping that life takes me to some place else for some perspective.
10-09-2009, 02:58 PM
ilikeaces86

Boost how can you bring a country into the global economy when their president has openly confessed that he would like to wipe Israel off the map and led chants of "Death to America" at political rallies.
10-09-2009, 03:01 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And yah, when I heard he got a nobel prize, I laughed.

Bombing the moon was much cooler. But in his shoes, I would have declined. He had an awesome opportunity to be like, "bitch, give me awards when I get my work done. I've got shit to do."

LOL, who in their right mind would decline a Nobel prize? I think that would be disastrous.

Whatever happened to leaders who were men? Leaders who could tell a prestigious institute to suck it because he's the man.
10-09-2009, 03:03 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And yah, when I heard he got a nobel prize, I laughed.

Bombing the moon was much cooler. But in his shoes, I would have declined. He had an awesome opportunity to be like, "bitch, give me awards when I get my work done. I've got shit to do."

LOL, who in their right mind would decline a Nobel prize? I think that would be disastrous.

Whatever happened to leaders who were men? Leaders who could tell a prestigious institute to suck it because he's the man.

Isn't that how we ended up in Iraq?
10-09-2009, 03:04 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevster

He's essentially got this for reversing the Bush Administration's foreign policy and showing a willingness to work with countries rather than say "fuck 'em all, we're going to do what we want anyway".

This says more about the Bush Admin than it does Obama's.

But for one mans accomplishments, rising through the murky waters of American politics, claiming the highest seat of power and using such authority for the improvement of the world, not just the Fortune 500. For one guy to do that, I could see tossing him a Nobel prize or two.
10-09-2009, 03:04 PM
boost

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Boost how can you bring a country into the global economy when their president has openly confessed that he would like to wipe Israel off the map and led chants of "Death to America" at political rallies.

right... Im not suggesting that we become friends with iran.. I really dont want to see another war, but iran is not playing nice with the rest of the world. But my point is not to just suddenly become a friendly big brother figure instead of a bully figure. My point is just that there are technologies that could do wonders in terms of bringing about relative global peace. And if we stopped pumping insane amounts of money into being the bully and instead fast tracked these emerging technologies that are just over the horizon we could realize this global security way sooner. Of course "way sooner" is still decades off, and 4 year political cycles arent very prone to look at the long haul..
10-09-2009, 03:05 PM
a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

And yah, when I heard he got a nobel prize, I laughed.

Bombing the moon was much cooler. But in his shoes, I would have declined. He had an awesome opportunity to be like, "bitch, give me awards when I get my work done. I've got shit to do."

LOL, who in their right mind would decline a Nobel prize? I think that would be disastrous.

Whatever happened to leaders who were men? Leaders who could tell a prestigious institute to suck it because he's the man.

Isn't that how we ended up in Iraq?

You thought Bush was the man? He seemed like an idiot to me, who was told "this'll make an asston of money for our friends in the <whatever> industry sign it/invade it."
10-09-2009, 03:08 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Boost how can you bring a country into the global economy when their president has openly confessed that he would like to wipe Israel off the map and led chants of "Death to America" at political rallies.

right... Im not suggesting that we become friends with iran.. I really dont want to see another war, but iran is not playing nice with the rest of the world. But my point is not to just suddenly become a friendly big brother figure instead of a bully figure. My point is just that there are technologies that could do wonders in terms of bringing about relative global peace. And if we stopped pumping insane amounts of money into being the bully and instead fast tracked these emerging technologies that are just over the horizon we could realize this global security way sooner. Of course "way sooner" is still decades off, and 4 year political cycles arent very prone to look at the long haul..

I think you're pretty spot on Boost. I feel like the problem with a lot of conservative thought is "We have a lot of pie and how do we keep this pie" when it should be something along the lines of "We have the baking know how to still have a lot of pie but we can help others achieve this pie as well. Then they'll be happy with their pie and not hate us for ours"

I'm kinda hungry now
10-09-2009, 03:12 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by ilikeaces86

Boost how can you bring a country into the global economy when their president has openly confessed that he would like to wipe Israel off the map and led chants of "Death to America" at political rallies.

Everybody doesn't have to agree with us or like us. And getting our drawers in a bunch over rhetoric is only a sign of cultural immaturity. "Axis of evil" hasn't done one thing to deter Iran's path towards nuclear arms. The recent internal civil unrest has done far more, and I can guarantee you its got much more to do with economics than it does with our perpetual sabre rattling.

Nobody's saying there's an easy option here. What I am saying is that attempting to break everyone's heads (or threaten to) is a losing paradigm. Putting all that brain power and resources towards coopting through economies is not.

But I don't want to derail Mr. Red's thread... so I'ma STFU now. :shock:
10-09-2009, 03:27 PM
BennyLaRue

I'll tell you exactly why he won: He ain't W.
10-09-2009, 04:00 PM
Monsieur_chat

I agree it is slightly ridiculous for him to win this.

What is hugely ridiculous though is how he's been treated since he got elected, this being just another example.
Seriously, how the FUCK can vast swathes of America blindly support Bush for 8 years, electing the motherfucker TWICE and now turn on Obama because he hasn't transformed the world into Eden in the space of 8 months?!

What happened to all that "hail to the chief", "I didn't vote for him but but now he's my commander in chief I'll back him 100%" bullshit? Does it not apply to black guys?

Shit blows my mind.
10-09-2009, 04:14 PM
a500lbgorilla

Listen to talk radio. Everyone does. Watch Fox News. It's on everywhere. Seriously, News Corp dominates the public conversation and they hold to one consistent law: FCK OBAMA
10-09-2009, 04:22 PM
kevster

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost

4 year political cycles arent very prone to look at the long haul..

+ 1 million. Best thing written in this thread and the reason why - on so many levels - we're all constantly being fucked in the ass

As for Obama trying to talk to errant nations, it should be pretty obvious that whilst offering the hand of peace might not work, declaring war definitely won't work.

Yet, war will never be far away for many reasons so I guess it's a moot point. I hate to say it but meh.
10-09-2009, 04:25 PM
Ztech

Quote:

I think you're pretty spot on Boost. I feel like the problem with a lot of conservative thought is "We have a lot of pie and how do we keep this pie" when it should be something along the lines of "We have the baking know how to still have a lot of pie but we can help others achieve this pie as well. Then they'll be happy with their pie and not hate us for ours"

I'm kinda hungry now

Without going into all the nonsense about the Euro lovefest for Obama.

Why should we care if the others aren't happy with thier pie and hate us for ours? I believe that if others wish to improve/better themselves then they will make it a priority to seek out the knowledge to do so. What you are saying is that we should give them this knowledge just so they aren't jealous of what we have.

This smacks of socialistic philosophy. If you believe this way, then step up and say so, don't try to make it sound like something else.

I have worked very hard to achieve what I have in my life. If someone comes to me and asks me how I accomplished something, then I will freely share that knowledge. But I will not give a person any information strictly because they hate me for my accomplishments.

It sounds like maybe you want more of a European style govt/life. If so I would be happy to give you a ride to the airport.
10-09-2009, 04:25 PM
bigred

^^^^

Shake dat ass
10-09-2009, 04:34 PM
Ztech

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

^^^^

Shake dat ass

Whatever that means...........
10-09-2009, 04:41 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

^^^^

Shake dat ass

Whatever that means...........

awwww you cockblocked me on kevster's avatar
10-09-2009, 04:46 PM
Ztech

Re: OBAMA! CHANGE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

I'm not on the Nobel committee so I'm probably not the most apt to decide who deserves the award and who doesn't. I'd argue everyone else on facebook, twitter, etc aren't on that committee as well...maybe you are and sworn to secrecy [/sarcasm].

What I'd like to discuss is my disappointment in the overall reaction of my fellow citizens. Our leader was chosen as a beacon of hope for the future of this world. Why is this so terrible? Has this bipartisan lens where we're literally waiting to jump on any opportunity to hate those who oppose our views really come this far?

I believe this to be a very skewed outlook. If I recall the President of the United States was elected by the people of the USA. The rest of the world didn't get a vote as I recall. I want a man in office that will do what is in the best interest of the country. I really don't care what the rest of the world thinks. But apparently this time they believe this elected official to be more concerned with thier interest.

As far as it being terrible, well that is obviously debatable.
10-09-2009, 04:49 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

Why should we care if the others aren't happy with thier pie and hate us for ours? I believe that if others wish to improve/better themselves then they will make it a priority to seek out the knowledge to do so. What you are saying is that we should give them this knowledge just so they aren't jealous of what we have.

So step off and let Iran and North Korea pursue nuclear power. They're just looking to grab their part of the pie... and a pie that BTW the US an Israel already have. Your argument only works on a level playing field. Which it's obviously not, and we go to great lengths to make sure that it stays that way. The past 500 years of history have made sure that the situation is nowhere near that simple...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

I have worked very hard to achieve what I have in my life. If someone comes to me and asks me how I accomplished something, then I will freely share that knowledge. But I will not give a person any information strictly because they hate me for my accomplishments.

I'm not going to diminish your hard work. However, I would argue that there are tens of thousands of Iraqi's who also worked very hard... and then had their sh!t turned upside down because we decided to step in (on premises that were completely unrelated to 99.9% of the population on the ground) and bought their investment in hard work to a screeching halt... because we could, and becase it was in our best interest. Believe me... they don't hate us because of anything that you specifically did or didn't accomplish.

IMHO spending time in a 2nd or 3rd world country should be mandatory for anyone in the US or western europe... especially the US as we're so geographically removed and isolated from the rest of the world. That and the fact that our K-12 education does exactly zero to give us a broader perspective. Those two things together are almost a recipe for xenophobia.

I also challenge anyone to find an example in history of a sustainable world power that was able to maintain its leadership through military power and with a detached disregard for the well-being of its neighbors at large. And that was before the world changed, and everybody became our neighbor and a single weapon had the potential to kill millions.
10-09-2009, 04:51 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

Quote:

I think you're pretty spot on Boost. I feel like the problem with a lot of conservative thought is "We have a lot of pie and how do we keep this pie" when it should be something along the lines of "We have the baking know how to still have a lot of pie but we can help others achieve this pie as well. Then they'll be happy with their pie and not hate us for ours"

I'm kinda hungry now

Without going into all the nonsense about the Euro lovefest for Obama.

Why should we care if the others aren't happy with thier pie and hate us for ours? I believe that if others wish to improve/better themselves then they will make it a priority to seek out the knowledge to do so. What you are saying is that we should give them this knowledge just so they aren't jealous of what we have.

This smacks of socialistic philosophy. If you believe this way, then step up and say so, don't try to make it sound like something else.

I have worked very hard to achieve what I have in my life. If someone comes to me and asks me how I accomplished something, then I will freely share that knowledge. But I will not give a person any information strictly because they hate me for my accomplishments.

It sounds like maybe you want more of a European style govt/life. If so I would be happy to give you a ride to the airport.

Socialism would be giving the pie to them regardless of merit. I'm saying teach them to bake the pie and let them do it on their own, it's humanitarianism. It sounds like you want a dictionary, I'd be willing to give you a ride to the library.
10-09-2009, 04:54 PM
mcatdog

Re: OBAMA! CHANGE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

What I'd like to discuss is my disappointment in the overall reaction of my fellow citizens. Our leader was chosen as a beacon of hope for the future of this world. Why is this so terrible? Has this bipartisan lens where we're literally waiting to jump on any opportunity to hate those who oppose our views really come this far?

I think this reaction is kind of like celebrating if the league MVP was given to an average player on your favorite team, or maybe a promising rookie who hasn't accomplished much yet. I'm not upset or hateful that he won, I just find it bizarre and it convinces me even more that the people who selected him (and the United Nations in general) are completely out of touch.
10-09-2009, 04:57 PM
sarbox68

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pie
10-09-2009, 05:00 PM
bigred

Re: OBAMA! CHANGE!

Quote:

Originally Posted by mcatdog

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

What I'd like to discuss is my disappointment in the overall reaction of my fellow citizens. Our leader was chosen as a beacon of hope for the future of this world. Why is this so terrible? Has this bipartisan lens where we're literally waiting to jump on any opportunity to hate those who oppose our views really come this far?

I think this reaction is kind of like celebrating if the league MVP was given to an average player on your favorite team, or maybe a promising rookie who hasn't accomplished much yet. I'm not upset or hateful that he won, I just find it bizarre and it convinces me even more that the people who selected him (and the United Nations in general) are completely out of touch.

I'm not disputing this, but I'd argue it's more like an average player on your favorite team who somehow has provided hope and inspiration towards the future of the game.
10-09-2009, 05:02 PM
Ztech

Quote:

Socialism would be giving the pie to them regardless of merit. I'm saying teach them to bake the pie and let them do it on their own, it's humanitarianism. It sounds like you want a dictionary, I'd be willing to give you a ride to the library.

Main Entry: hu·man·i·tar·i·an
Pronunciation: \hyü-ˌma-nə-ˈter-ē-ən, yü-\
Function: noun
Date: 1844
: a person promoting human welfare and social reform

If you want this then give to a charity. This should not be handled by any government entity. If you wish to look for the government to act as your charity I am sure the IRS will be more than happy to take your contribution.
10-09-2009, 05:07 PM
kevster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

It sounds like maybe you want more of a European style govt/life. If so I would be happy to give you a ride to the airport.

I wonder which country in the world has the largest percentage of blindly patriotic citizens?

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

It sounds like you want a dictionary, I'd be willing to give you a ride to the library.

Zing!

There is a probably some merit in this conclusion.
10-09-2009, 05:15 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevster

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

It sounds like maybe you want more of a European style govt/life. If so I would be happy to give you a ride to the airport.

I wonder which country in the world has the largest percentage of blindly patriotic citizens?

North Korea
prolly followed in some order by China, Malaysia (altho' their minds change frequently), Iran, and then you can prolly move to the central american countries.....
10-09-2009, 05:17 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

Quote:

Socialism would be giving the pie to them regardless of merit. I'm saying teach them to bake the pie and let them do it on their own, it's humanitarianism. It sounds like you want a dictionary, I'd be willing to give you a ride to the library.

Main Entry: hu·man·i·tar·i·an
Pronunciation: \hyü-ˌma-nə-ˈter-ē-ən, yü-\
Function: noun
Date: 1844
: a person promoting human welfare and social reform

If you want this then give to a charity. This should not be handled by any government entity. If you wish to look for the government to act as your charity I am sure the IRS will be more than happy to take your contribution.

It's extremely simplified, but let me try to form my argument a little more clearly:

1) Country A, through chance and international imperialism becomes extremely wealthy and prosperous and advances.
2) Country A worked "hard" to be in this position and has every right to hold onto this.
3) Country A intervenes in foreign affairs continually with the idea of self preservation.
4) Country A controls and bullies foreign countries because it has the power to do so in the preservation of its own interests.
5) Technology evolves and suddenly Country B, who is bitter, resource deprived, and angry at Country A, now has nuclear capabilities. Country B says fuck you and devastates country A.

Whereas

1) Country A, through chance and international imperialism becomes extremely wealthy and prosperous and advances.
2) Country A worked "hard" to be in this position and has every right to hold onto this.
3) Country A intervenes in foreign affairs continually with the idea of self preservation.
4) Country A realizes it is pissing people off and evolving technology means country A isn't as invulnerable as it thought. Suddenly foreign diplomacy is extremely important.
5) Country A doesn't just give out handouts but it becomes a nurturing force that realizes the interests and well being of other countries directly influences the well being of Country A.
6) Country A pulls head out of ass and becomes the beacon of hope this Nobel Peace Prize envisions.
10-09-2009, 05:22 PM
Ztech

Quote:

So step off and let Iran and North Korea pursue nuclear power. They're just looking to grab their part of the pie... and a pie that BTW the US an Israel already have. Your argument only works on a level playing field. Which it's obviously not, and we go to great lengths to make sure that it stays that way. The past 500 years of history have made sure that the situation is nowhere near that simple...

I am fine stepping off. Israel will handle thier buisness far more effectively if we get out of the way. We really don't need to concern ourselves with North Korea as much. Russia and China will deal with them one way or the other.

Quote:

I'm not going to diminish your hard work. However, I would argue that there are tens of thousands of Iraqi's who also worked very hard... and then had their sh!t turned upside down because we decided to step in (on premises that were completely unrelated to 99.9% of the population on the ground) and bought their investment in hard work to a screeching halt... because we could, and becase it was in our best interest. Believe me... they don't hate us because of anything that you specifically did or didn't accomplish.

IMHO spending time in a 2nd or 3rd world country should be mandatory for anyone in the US or western europe... especially the US as we're so geographically removed and isolated from the rest of the world. That and the fact that our K-12 education does exactly zero to give us a broader perspective. Those two things together are almost a recipe for xenophobia.

I also challenge anyone to find an example in history of a sustainable world power that was able to maintain its leadership through military power and with a detached disregard for the well-being of its neighbors at large. And that was before the world changed, and everybody became our neighbor and a single weapon had the potential to kill millions.

I have spent several years of my life in 3rd world countries. It is what makes me so thankful for what we have in our country. If you think the majority of the world hates us for our accomplishments then you are sadly mistaken. I was referring specifically to Bigreds comments. The stuff in the Middle east has not stopped for hundreds of years, and will continue for hundreds more. Most of the conflict in the Middle east is based on religion and ethnicity. I have seen this firsthand, I served in what is now Bosnia/Serbia/Macedonia as well as in Desert Storm. So I think I have a pretty good perspective of how it is over there.

Getting back to the thread topic. I believe that Obama recieving this award is laughable at best, especially when he is getting ready to send more troops to Afganistan. But I think it is wrong to award this to him when there are 204 other people nominated 10+ of which have specific accomplishments that can be cited, and not a ethereal "he has the potential".
10-09-2009, 05:38 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

I am fine stepping off. Israel will handle thier buisness far more effectively if we get out of the way. We really don't need to concern ourselves with North Korea as much. Russia and China will deal with them one way or the other.

Unfortunately, Israel's ability to "handle their business" as you put it exists mostly because of the support of the US. Israel is a big part of the ME problem -- but that's for a whole other thread. And you already know that most of the world equates any action by Israel as a simple proxy for the US.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

If you think the majority of the world hates us for our accomplishments then you are sadly mistaken.

I don't -- I was responding to your statement - although if you equate all actions with accomplishments, then yes - much of the world that hates us does so because of our "accomplishments".

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

I have seen this firsthand, I served in what is now Bosnia/Serbia/Macedonia as well as in Desert Storm. So I think I have a pretty good perspective of how it is over there.

Then you fully understand the very real limits of military power, and (I would think) would be in the front of the line looking for more enlightened options that preclude the need to put you and your brothers in harms way. I've lost 18 and counting between Iraq and Afghanistan. Knowing they actually bought time for a meaningful change in paradigm would make their sacrifice much more worthwhile.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

But I think it is wrong to award this to him when there are 204 other people nominated 10+ of which have specific accomplishments that can be cited, and not a ethereal "he has the potential".

I don't disagree with this. And I agree with the early post that this was really nothing more than the European left's nod of approval at the change in MO... which they are completely entitled to do as it is their trophy.
10-09-2009, 06:08 PM
kevster

He who seeks vengance must dig two graves; one for his enemy and one for himself.
10-09-2009, 06:11 PM
kevster

And will people stop going on about the liberal fucking media. It's puerile nonsense and very fucking annoying.

The right-wing media are everywhere too y'know jackasses and are far more vitriolic.
10-09-2009, 06:21 PM
bigred

Quote:

Originally Posted by kevster

And will people stop going on about the liberal fucking media. It's puerile nonsense and very fucking annoying.

The right-wing media are everywhere too y'know jackasses and are far more vitriolic.

+1

I'd also like to vent about "hard working" Americans and our mislead sense of entitlement. We won the fucking lottery being born here.
10-09-2009, 06:24 PM
kevster

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigred

We won the fucking lottery being born here.

I often think this about the UK. People find complaining too easy.
10-09-2009, 07:46 PM
boost

bigred, the library line was pure ownage.

I think what disturbs me the most about your posts ztech is this pervasive nationalistic overtone. Nationalistic views lead to nothing but war, and are relics of a slowly fading past. You probably have far more in common with a specific chinese, iranian, or french person than you do with the population of america on average. And as the world becomes more and more globalized this will only prove to be more of a truth. What this shows is that there is really little reason for you to fly your flag high. We are all one people, nations and boarders are simply fabrications initally created to protect us, yet through age they have come to do just the opposite.

And on a side note: Take a look back through history, try to look for instances where one side said "if you dont like it, go somewhere else!" This is always the side that is wrong. Just food for thought...
10-09-2009, 08:16 PM
Ztech

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost

bigred, the library line was pure ownage.

I think what disturbs me the most about your posts ztech is this pervasive nationalistic overtone. Nationalistic views lead to nothing but war, and are relics of a slowly fading past. You probably have far more in common with a specific chinese, iranian, or french person than you do with the population of america on average. And as the world becomes more and more globalized this will only prove to be more of a truth. What this shows is that there is really little reason for you to fly your flag high. We are all one people, nations and boarders are simply fabrications initally created to protect us, yet through age they have come to do just the opposite.

And on a side note: Take a look back through history, try to look for instances where one side said "if you dont like it, go somewhere else!" This is always the side that is wrong. Just food for thought...

There are so many things I would like to say in response to your post, however I think that it would be wasted on you. You are obviously a transnational progressive, which you have a right to be, in our country.

I have served my country so that you have the freedom of opinion and speech that you enjoy. I have lived in other countries and have experienced many things that allow me to truly understand some of the freedoms that we enjoy in the USA. In fact my son is a dual citizen of the US and Germany.

If you interpret my post as that I have pride in my country, then you sir are correct. I will always love my country and what it has allowed me to accomplish in my life. I put an American flag out on the front of my house every morning and take it in every evening. This type of tradion I learned from my father and my grandfather. I will proudly fly it everyday with honor and respect.

As for your one world viewpiont, you are entitiled to your opinion and view, and I do not begrudge you this right. So on your point we will agree to disagree.

As for you last statement I am of the opinion that if you are in a situation/environment that you don't like then you are the only one that has the power and initative to change that. I am not interested in hearing you whine about what you don't like. It equates to a bad beat story, no one cares, if you can't deal with the beats then don't play. So I do not think this view is "Wrong". I think your attempted spin upon the morality of an opinion is laughable, but it does go along the same ideological lines as some of your other obvious views. One of the reasons that I have this viewpoint is because I have thought about it, alot. It's kind of like a job you are in that you don't like. You can either adjust and adapt, or you can find other employment. So this brings us to this conclusion - we have the freedom of speech/opinion we also have the right to repudiate our citizenship, I am just calling out those who don't have the courage to change thier circumstance, but seem to have plenty to whine about.
10-09-2009, 08:23 PM
CoccoBill

Ztech, if that's a level I commend you, if not, I only have one thing to say. People aren't jealous of what you allegedly have, they just don't like you.

Kevster, bigred, boost, thanks for saving me from a huge tilt. Nice posts.
10-09-2009, 08:53 PM
wufwugy

Wow

Just wow

This thread is all over the place. While I would love to lay the smackdown, I don't think I have it in me to get my WPP up to 250

One thing I cannot let go though is this liberal media garbage. Instead of claiming that the media has a liberal bias, instead just claim that you don't know anything about the media and about liberalism.

While there are a couple small sects of quasi-liberal media in the quasi-mainstream, popular journalism is the opposite of liberal. It's tabloid. If MSNBC was fucking liberal they would have run one story on Michael Jackson then moved on to the important stuff, but instead they crammed him down our throats for weeks because that's what tabloids do.

If you ever find a media source that doesn't cover stupid shit that ignores the issues, then you've found a liberal media. For example: does anybody remember the Henry Gates thing? Remember how the entire week was ALL about health care, then Obama makes one slip up in rhetoric about an unrelated topic, then the floodgates open and the mass media stops covering health care and instead the retarded nonsense for fucking ever.

While journalists tend to personally lean towards liberalism, when in the mainstream, they work for companies that are all about the dollah dollah bill yo. Don't forget that

Liberal media is myth. If it wasn't myth then the Iraq War and the Crisis of 08 would most definitely have never happened. But that doesn't stop people from not knowing what the hell they're talking about and confusing myopic, reactionary tabloids with what Cronkite and Murrow did.

Lots of other myths in this thread, but my head would asplode if I tried to address them all. Some good stuff too though
10-09-2009, 09:19 PM
boost

On one hand you claim that you fought for my freedom to hold the opinion I hold, yet in the next sentence you tell me if I hold this opinion Im whining and I should gtfo.

Make up your mind before you post more on this point.

Also while you are right, I can renounce my citizenship, I would have to immigrate to another country, and its not guaranteed theyd have me. On top of that american tax laws hold that I have to continue to pay taxes for a decade (ten years!) and if I dont I cannot return to america without being locked up. This is to prevent people from immigrating to some tax haven country to avoid paying taxes, which is a good thing but it also means anyone who wants to renounce their citizenship for any other reason is fucked.

Lastly I fail to see how offering a "we're all in this together" viewpoint as opposed to a "us vs them" mentality is in any way shape or form a moral spin. Possibly its just that in light of my view on things youve realized your viewpoint is morally devoid..
10-09-2009, 10:59 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost

On one hand you claim that you fought for my freedom to hold the opinion I hold, yet in the next sentence you tell me if I hold this opinion Im whining and I should gtfo.

Make up your mind before you post more on this point.

Also while you are right, I can renounce my citizenship, I would have to immigrate to another country, and its not guaranteed theyd have me. On top of that american tax laws hold that I have to continue to pay taxes for a decade (ten years!) and if I dont I cannot return to america without being locked up. This is to prevent people from immigrating to some tax haven country to avoid paying taxes, which is a good thing but it also means anyone who wants to renounce their citizenship for any other reason is fucked.

Lastly I fail to see how offering a "we're all in this together" viewpoint as opposed to a "us vs them" mentality is in any way shape or form a moral spin. Possibly its just that in light of my view on things youve realized your viewpoint is morally devoid..

They should have never let [some hilariously low percentage of] you niggas vote. In before

http://www.randomimage.us/files/436e66cff0956.gif
10-09-2009, 11:01 PM
Ztech

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost

On one hand you claim that you fought for my freedom to hold the opinion I hold, yet in the next sentence you tell me if I hold this opinion Im whining and I should gtfo.

Make up your mind before you post more on this point.

Also while you are right, I can renounce my citizenship, I would have to immigrate to another country, and its not guaranteed theyd have me. On top of that american tax laws hold that I have to continue to pay taxes for a decade (ten years!) and if I dont I cannot return to america without being locked up. This is to prevent people from immigrating to some tax haven country to avoid paying taxes, which is a good thing but it also means anyone who wants to renounce their citizenship for any other reason is fucked.

Lastly I fail to see how offering a "we're all in this together" viewpoint as opposed to a "us vs them" mentality is in any way shape or form a moral spin. Possibly its just that in light of my view on things youve realized your viewpoint is morally devoid..

I was right in my first sentence. My comments and viewpoints were wasted on you.

So to you sir, I say thank you and goodnight.
10-09-2009, 11:24 PM
Jack Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost

On top of that american tax laws hold that I have to continue to pay taxes for a decade (ten years!) and if I dont I cannot return to america without being locked up.

LOL, the death and taxes thing is true then.
10-09-2009, 11:25 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost

On one hand you claim that you fought for my freedom to hold the opinion I hold, yet in the next sentence you tell me if I hold this opinion Im whining and I should gtfo.

Make up your mind before you post more on this point.

Also while you are right, I can renounce my citizenship, I would have to immigrate to another country, and its not guaranteed theyd have me. On top of that american tax laws hold that I have to continue to pay taxes for a decade (ten years!) and if I dont I cannot return to america without being locked up. This is to prevent people from immigrating to some tax haven country to avoid paying taxes, which is a good thing but it also means anyone who wants to renounce their citizenship for any other reason is fucked.

Lastly I fail to see how offering a "we're all in this together" viewpoint as opposed to a "us vs them" mentality is in any way shape or form a moral spin. Possibly its just that in light of my view on things youve realized your viewpoint is morally devoid..

They should have never let [some hilariously low percentage of] you niggas vote. In before

http://www.randomimage.us/files/436e66cff0956.gif

That's racist!
10-09-2009, 11:43 PM
Warpe

clazy Amelicans
10-09-2009, 11:54 PM
spoonitnow

I wonder if hating Americans counts as being racist.
10-10-2009, 12:56 AM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I wonder if hating Americans counts as being racist.

only the white ones
10-10-2009, 01:00 AM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I wonder if hating Americans counts as being racist.

only the white ones

Or European-Americans, like the box I checked when I took some survey in high school.
10-10-2009, 01:03 AM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I wonder if hating Americans counts as being racist.

only the white ones

Or European-Americans, like the box I checked when I took some survey in high school.

I always checked "Other" and then wrote in Mexican...
10-10-2009, 01:25 AM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

I wonder if hating Americans counts as being racist.

only the white ones

Or European-Americans, like the box I checked when I took some survey in high school.

I always checked "Other" and then wrote in Mexican...

I'm roughly half various-European and half Cherokee injun so if I'm in the sun for more than an hour I look like a graham cracker. Combine that with the fact that I started shaving in like the 4th grade and there are often times that I understandably am thought to be hispanic.

So one of the first days of school my junior or senior year of high school (I don't remember which) some freshman was trying to impress his buddies and was making fun of me for being a Mexican b/c I guess he thought I was a Mexican or w/e and so I picked a fight with him and he like ran off. After that, a lot of the guys I wrestled with and lifted with started calling me Fernando the Conqueror in jest, which I thought was funny as hell since they would start chanting that shit at matches.

But yeah about the Obama thing I think he realizes it's fucked but doesn't really want to turn it down and look like a douchebag. I mean, can you imagine all of these old white guys calling Obama an ungrateful negro? Kinda like that scene in Roots where Kunta Kinte is ungrateful for the name Toby that the plantation owner gave him.
10-10-2009, 03:20 AM
kevster

I like how such a high percentage of FTR 's reg commune posters are pretty right on peeps.
10-10-2009, 05:05 AM
boost

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ztech

Quote:

Originally Posted by boost

On one hand you claim that you fought for my freedom to hold the opinion I hold, yet in the next sentence you tell me if I hold this opinion Im whining and I should gtfo.

Make up your mind before you post more on this point.

Also while you are right, I can renounce my citizenship, I would have to immigrate to another country, and its not guaranteed theyd have me. On top of that american tax laws hold that I have to continue to pay taxes for a decade (ten years!) and if I dont I cannot return to america without being locked up. This is to prevent people from immigrating to some tax haven country to avoid paying taxes, which is a good thing but it also means anyone who wants to renounce their citizenship for any other reason is fucked.

Lastly I fail to see how offering a "we're all in this together" viewpoint as opposed to a "us vs them" mentality is in any way shape or form a moral spin. Possibly its just that in light of my view on things youve realized your viewpoint is morally devoid..

I was right in my first sentence. My comments and viewpoints were wasted on you.

So to you sir, I say thank you and goodnight.

well it was nice that you set up that first sentence so that you could reply to anything I said with this. However anyone with a handful of brain cells can see through your weak position.
10-10-2009, 08:11 AM
a500lbgorilla

Thinking on it some more. He should def accept the award and we should def be proud that the world is actually bringing America back into its fold.
10-10-2009, 12:13 PM
sarbox68

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Thinking on it some more. He should def accept the award and we should def be proud that the Norwegians are actually bringing America back into its fold.

FYP
10-10-2009, 01:06 PM
Warpe

Quote:

Originally Posted by a500lbgorilla

Thinking on it some more. He should def accept the award and we should def be proud that the world is actually bringing America back into its fold.

Surprised you had to think about it at all. When are people going to accept that he's your democratically elected PRESIDENT? The fucking right-wingnuts that are trying to de-legitimize his Presidency are driving me nuts.

The Nobel Committee is definitely sending a political message here but that's nothing new. Al Gore got the Nobel for MOVIE, for pete's sake.
10-10-2009, 01:43 PM
Halv

fwiw here in norway public opinion about giving him the prize is split around 40% yay, 40% nay, 20% meh.
10-10-2009, 03:46 PM
Warpe

Quote:

---------- Original Message ----------
From: President Barack Obama
Subject: A call to action

Friend --

This morning, Michelle and I awoke to some surprising and humbling news. At 6 a.m., we received word that I'd been awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for 2009.

To be honest, I do not feel that I deserve to be in the company of so many of the transformative figures who've been honored by this prize -- men and women who've inspired me and inspired the entire world through their courageous pursuit of peace.

But I also know that throughout history the Nobel Peace Prize has not just been used to honor specific achievement; it's also been used as a means to give momentum to a set of causes.

That is why I've said that I will accept this award as a call to action, a call for all nations and all peoples to confront the common challenges of the 21st century. These challenges won't all be met during my presidency, or even my lifetime. But I know these challenges can be met so long as it's recognized that they will not be met by one person or one nation alone.

This award -- and the call to action that comes with it -- does not belong simply to me or my administration; it belongs to all people around the world who have fought for justice and for peace. And most of all, it belongs to you, the men and women of America, who have dared to hope and have worked so hard to make our world a little better.

So today we humbly recommit to the important work that we've begun together. I'm grateful that you've stood with me thus far, and I'm honored to continue our vital work in the years to come.

Thank you,

President Barack Obama

Show 100 post(s) from this thread on one page

All times are GMT -4. The time now is 12:55 PM.

Image resizer by SevenSkins