Floating

Villain is a noob, he's folded maybe three hands after joining the table a few minutes prior. I got no stats at all to go on.


PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($2.48)
MP2 ($0.68)
MP3 ($2.25)
Hero (CO) ($6.04)
Button ($4.82)
SB ($3.23)
Villain (BB) ($0.95)
UTG ($2.05)
UTG+1 ($1.98)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
UTG calls $0.02, 1 fold, MP1 calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, Villain calls $0.06, UTG calls $0.06, MP1 calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.33) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
Villain bets $0.04, UTG calls $0.04, MP1 calls $0.04, Hero calls $0.04

Turn: ($0.49) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (4 players)
Villain bets $0.10, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.10

River: ($0.69) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Villain bets $0.20, Hero calls $0.20

Total pot: $1.09 | Rake: $0.05

Results below:
Villain had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (one pair, Queens).
Hero had 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (straight, ten high).
Outcome: Hero won $1.04


Now you've seen me call down a gutshot and hit the river, you might agree with the chat bar comments this showdown got.

But, let's first break the hand down.

He calls my late pos raise. He's probably not aware that I've been raising a wide range, so he might actually credit this raise. At this stage though his hand range is fairly wide.

Now, he bets out 4c into a 33c pot on the flop. I got a gutshot. His bet is so weak I almost have the correct pot odds to draw, and with implied odds and two more rounds of betting it's an easy call here. But why bet so little, with two spades out? So, he's either flush drawing, straight drawing, a pocket pair that he's not too comfortable with, or air, like Ax.

Turn is an ace, he fires 10c into a 49c pot. Now I'm priced out. But I don't want to fold, I think he's weak. I decide now he has a pp or Ax, and that I'm calling my gutshot with every intention of raising the river if it's a spade.

River is the 8! Of spades! The only spade I'm not raising on the river! Bet/call is fine by me, he might have been flush drawing, and is probably folding weaker hands to a raise.

To my surprise, he turns over QQ, and I take it down. Yet it's me who's called a donk in the chat bar! After his amazing flop bet!

What are your thoughts? Is my play transparent? Am I getting called by QQ or even Ax, which is as strong as I think he is, if I raise the river? Or am I playing too much with fire, based on flush draw being in his range, and the fact he's short stack?

I don't want to get into the habit of chasing every gutshot that has other draws on the board, becuase that's a quick route to bankroll oblivion, but I need to know is this is a good floating spot. It seemed so to me, but I got lucky, so didn't need to steal.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($4.93)
CO ($5.14)
Button ($3.41)
Hero (SB) ($10.29)
BB ($5)
UTG ($4.47)
Villain (UTG+1) ($1.23)
MP1 ($1.88)
MP2 ($0.46)

Preflop: Hero is SB with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, Villain calls $0.02, MP1 calls $0.02, 3 folds, Button calls $0.02, Hero calls $0.01, BB checks

Flop: ($0.10) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (5 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, Villain bets $0.04, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.04, 1 fold

Turn: ($0.18) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Villain bets $0.12, Hero raises to $0.40, Villain calls $0.28

River: ($0.98) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.77, Villain calls $0.77 (All-In)

Total pot: $2.52 | Rake: $0.10

Results below:
Hero had Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (straight, King high).
Villain had Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (two pair, Kings and Queens).
Outcome: Hero won $2.42


No sooner had I posted this thread, this hand happened. Again, I called a gutshot when priced out, because this time I thought he had Q, and I could push him off if the club falls. Again I get lucky!

there's absolutely no excuse for you to float in 2nl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by amir is cool

there's absolutely no excuse for you to float in 2nl

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Why?

Isolating with T6s is pretty bad at 2NL. I could see an argument for overlimping because of implied odds but folding pre is probably best.

On the turn you're getting 6:1 pot odds but you're around 11:1 to improve to hit your gutshot and you don't even raise the river when you hit. Criminal.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheBowlBoy

Isolating with T6s is pretty bad at 2NL. I could see an argument for overlimping because of implied odds but folding pre is probably best.

On the turn you're getting 6:1 pot odds but you're around 11:1 to improve to hit your gutshot and you don't even raise the river when you hit. Criminal.

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My sentiments exactly. Also the fact that villain is short is even more of a reason to shove, as he's probably bad (obv from the way he played this hand) and therefore he will call with plenty worse than you shouldn't be worried about the few times he has a flush draw.

Also, I wouldn't hate a turn raise rather than a float, as he is likely not strong, we have equity when called, and the 'ultimate scare card' has come (even though we make little sense when raising the turn). But given he is short I don't think I like it much.

Yes, fold preflop.

How about villains play?
is hero ever calling with worst like JJ/TT?

My pre flop raise serves four purposes.

First, it increases the chances of stealing the button,
Second, it isolates, increasing the chances of me taking it down with a c-bet,
Third, builds a pot should I hit the flop hard.
Fourth, I have post flop initiative.

So raising is definitely preferable to calling. Folding is obviously what I should do, but screw that, I want a LAG image.

The turn is where I'm floating. I'm priced in if I'm flush drawing. I'm not drawing on just the 8, I consider a spade to be good for me, because I have something to represent with a raise and push him off his hand.

And of course I don't raise the river. He might have been betting so weak with a flush draw himself, so he might have me beat. If I raise, he folds everything I'm beating and calls everything that's beating me. I have suddenly got showdown value, but I have only got a straight on a flush board. Raising would be stupid, in my opinion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by clvacva

How about villains play?
is hero ever calling with worst like JJ/TT?

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Where, at the flop? I'd raise the flop with TT/JJ, find out how strong he really is. I wouldn't call.

@ preflop:
First, your bet sizing pre is awful a cognizant button who would limp/raise will be unaffected by your raise as he knows others will limp along.
Second, again your bet sizing limits your opportunity to isolate a single player. The advantage of a hand like T6s is it can very rarely make big hands, but against 2nl villians you dont want something that will rarely make a big hand, you want to isolate with something that will more frequently flop top pair to take the 2nl fish to value town like KT or something.
Third, that you may want to inflate the pot for when you hit with a pp so you are playing for stacks more often when you hit a set, but T6s just won't hit often enough to make this any kind of a reason.
Fourth, don't fall in love with the iso raise c betting line when it is unprofitable ; you have the initiative, so what, you get to bet your air weak pair or draws into mutliple opponents? That's not profitable.

At FTR we play for EV not for an image. You may think playing lagg is fun, but let me correct you right there. Winning money is fun.

@turn/river:

You think its likely villian has a flush draw, but you're planning to bluff when the flush hits? Villian is short, and a ton of worse is calling, especially at 2nl. I really wouldn't be counting bluff outs btw as most people will not even notice a 3rd spade came out. People at 2nl play their hand, and let the other players worry about their own hands.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugger

My pre flop raise serves four purposes.

First, it increases the chances of stealing the button,
Second, it isolates, increasing the chances of me taking it down with a c-bet,
Third, builds a pot should I hit the flop hard.
Fourth, I have post flop initiative.

So raising is definitely preferable to calling. Folding is obviously what I should do, but screw that, I want a LAG image.

The turn is where I'm floating. I'm priced in if I'm flush drawing. I'm not drawing on just the 8, I consider a spade to be good for me, because I have something to represent with a raise and push him off his hand.

And of course I don't raise the river. He might have been betting so weak with a flush draw himself, so he might have me beat. If I raise, he folds everything I'm beating and calls everything that's beating me. I have suddenly got showdown value, but I have only got a straight on a flush board. Raising would be stupid, in my opinion.

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Everyone involved played horrible imo

It's called 2nl

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Outlaw

Everyone involved played horrible imo

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"At FTR we play for EV not for an image. You may think playing lagg is fun, but let me correct you right there. Winning money is fun. "

Both is fun to me. I am winning money. $100 in one week at 1/2nl. LAG is not the route to bankruptcy.

"you want to isolate with something that will more frequently flop top pair to take the 2nl fish to value town like KT or something. "

I'm sorry, are you suggesting I play KT instead of T6? Fuck that, I'm much more likely to be dominated with KT. It's insta-muck every time that trash is. At 2nl, top pair isn't all that, believe me. I make most of my money off people who can't let go of top pair. I don't play for top pair, it wins small pots and loses big ones. I want 2pr better, that's where the money is. I can still get value from the fish with hands like T6 against drawing hands by firing all three streets; so long as they miss, they fold the river, and, naturally, they miss more often than they hit. So I make money by value betting with pair/air against drawing fish, and hitting flops hard like set, 2pr, flush draw/pair etc

"you have the initiative, so what, you get to bet your air weak pair or draws into mutliple opponents? That's not profitable. "

No, but it's profitable heads up. If I'm not heads up, then I guess I have to see what the flop says, won't I?

And image is everything. It's not about looking cool or anything, it's about getting paid when I really do have a hand. People make notes, and I want their notes on me to say I'm capable of three-barrell bluffs with air, and piling on the pressure with scare cards. I tend to win bigger pots when I have a flush, and I win a lot of hands when I don't have the flush, enough hands to pay for the times I get called, with change to spare. Profit.


"You think its likely villian has a flush draw, but you're planning to bluff when the flush hits?"

Yeah. Except I don't think it's likely he has flush draw, I think it's in his range. I think it's likely he has Ax or pocket pair, that's what I decided before I made the turn call. I decided he was folding to a river raise if it's a spade. In the end I didn't need him to fold to win the hand.

1.You are right, lag play doesn't lead to bankrupcy at 2nl but your statement earlier, "Folding is obviously what I should do, but screw that" is what leads to bankrupcy at upper limits, a lower win rate at 2nl.

2. Winning at 2nl isn't hard and doesn't mean you are playing optimally, especially over just one week.

3. KT is far better to iso with than T6, and every good player on this forum would agree with me. We are not going to stack off blindly with our TP when we are dominated, like if our c bet gets raised when we hit TP we are probably folding. There is a TON of money to be won with those TP hands though cause at 2nl (i played their recently) players will call down when they shouldn't with their top pair worse kickers, middle pairs, flush draws, straight draws, and even ace highs.

4. Like i mentioned previously that bet sizing isn't going to get you a HU pot very often, try to raise to 4x BB + 1 BB for every other player that limped along when isolating. We will have plenty of c betting opportunities, we dont need to raise our junk to get a chance.

5. Finally, I'm not the best player in the world, and neither are the other people in this forum, but we have experience in what wins to some extent. When you take something Stacks said and just discard it, remember that he is speaking from thousands and thousands of hands experience, your reaction should not be to disregard what other people say, but to learn why what they said hs merits.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugger

"At FTR we play for EV not for an image. You may think playing lagg is fun, but let me correct you right there. Winning money is fun. "

Both is fun to me. I am winning money. $100 in one week at 1/2nl. LAG is not the route to bankruptcy.

"you want to isolate with something that will more frequently flop top pair to take the 2nl fish to value town like KT or something. "

I'm sorry, are you suggesting I play KT instead of T6? Fuck that, I'm much more likely to be dominated with KT. It's insta-muck every time that trash is. At 2nl, top pair isn't all that, believe me. I make most of my money off people who can't let go of top pair. I don't play for top pair, it wins small pots and loses big ones. I want 2pr better, that's where the money is. I can still get value from the fish with hands like T6 against drawing hands by firing all three streets; so long as they miss, they fold the river, and, naturally, they miss more often than they hit. So I make money by value betting with pair/air against drawing fish, and hitting flops hard like set, 2pr, flush draw/pair etc

"you have the initiative, so what, you get to bet your air weak pair or draws into mutliple opponents? That's not profitable. "

No, but it's profitable heads up. If I'm not heads up, then I guess I have to see what the flop says, won't I?

And image is everything. It's not about looking cool or anything, it's about getting paid when I really do have a hand. People make notes, and I want their notes on me to say I'm capable of three-barrell bluffs with air, and piling on the pressure with scare cards. I tend to win bigger pots when I have a flush, and I win a lot of hands when I don't have the flush, enough hands to pay for the times I get called, with change to spare. Profit.


"You think its likely villian has a flush draw, but you're planning to bluff when the flush hits?"

Yeah. Except I don't think it's likely he has flush draw, I think it's in his range. I think it's likely he has Ax or pocket pair, that's what I decided before I made the turn call. I decided he was folding to a river raise if it's a spade. In the end I didn't need him to fold to win the hand.

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugger

"At FTR we play for EV not for an image. You may think playing lagg is fun, but let me correct you right there. Winning money is fun. "

Both is fun to me. I am winning money. $100 in one week at 1/2nl. LAG is not the route to bankruptcy.

"you want to isolate with something that will more frequently flop top pair to take the 2nl fish to value town like KT or something. "

I'm sorry, are you suggesting I play KT instead of T6? Fuck that, I'm much more likely to be dominated with KT. It's insta-muck every time that trash is. At 2nl, top pair isn't all that, believe me. I make most of my money off people who can't let go of top pair. I don't play for top pair, it wins small pots and loses big ones. I want 2pr better, that's where the money is. I can still get value from the fish with hands like T6 against drawing hands by firing all three streets; so long as they miss, they fold the river, and, naturally, they miss more often than they hit. So I make money by value betting with pair/air against drawing fish, and hitting flops hard like set, 2pr, flush draw/pair etc

"you have the initiative, so what, you get to bet your air weak pair or draws into mutliple opponents? That's not profitable. "

No, but it's profitable heads up. If I'm not heads up, then I guess I have to see what the flop says, won't I?

And image is everything. It's not about looking cool or anything, it's about getting paid when I really do have a hand. People make notes, and I want their notes on me to say I'm capable of three-barrell bluffs with air, and piling on the pressure with scare cards. I tend to win bigger pots when I have a flush, and I win a lot of hands when I don't have the flush, enough hands to pay for the times I get called, with change to spare. Profit.


"You think its likely villian has a flush draw, but you're planning to bluff when the flush hits?"

Yeah. Except I don't think it's likely he has flush draw, I think it's in his range. I think it's likely he has Ax or pocket pair, that's what I decided before I made the turn call. I decided he was folding to a river raise if it's a spade. In the end I didn't need him to fold to win the hand.

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1) You sound really defensive. And for some reason while reading your response I could just sense your hatred through the screen. Whether I'm wrong or right, just keep in mind it's a discussion. We are here to find the right advice from the masses of wrong.

2) The whole TAGG/LAGG descriptions of players is bullshit imo. It tells you practically nothing about a villain's tendencies, or even your tendencies. It doesn't say whether he 3bets often, or calls a wide range preflop. Or if he is prone to c/raising flops, or bet/3betting. It's just a general way to describe someone, and as we know, general statements and poker 'generally' don't mix.

You attempt to make +EV decisions. Why does bluff raising a board when it's +EV have merit in classifying a player as LAGG/TAGG?

3) LOL @ drooling at isolating with T6s but hating the idea of isolating with KT. That's just beyond retarded. You say you are more likely to be dominated with KT, than with T6? Yeah, because the sole bulk of retard 2nlers limp/calling range is Kx hands. Use pokerstove just a little bit, and you will see that KT has a fair bit better equity against villain's likely range than T6s.

Also, since when does T6s make more pairs, two pairs, trips, straights, and flushes than KTs? I understand your hatred for all that is top pair, but equity is equity, and personally I'm the kinda guy that would rather have more equity than less against a range. Might just be me though.

4) LOL again @ image being everything. Image is no where near everything. Espeically when the player pool you are competing against is (1) retarded (2) huge and unlikely to see you again (3) retarded (4) is there a worse word than retarded?.. Yes, it would be good for a villain to take a note saying "villain 3barreled IP with initiative with overcards and bricked BDFD", but in all likelihood these players aren't taking notes, and at least not good ones.

I'm not going to say they don't see a player and classify him, that's what the TAGG/LAGG words are for (for retarded players ldo). But for them to correctly adjust, and you to correctly counter-adjust to best exploit them, that's a bit of a stretch I think. Especailly, coming from the guy who believes a player is retarded, and thinks that bluffing a flush when his range contains oh so many flush draws is +EV, but raising a straight on the river against a shorty is quote "stupid".

Also, just a fwiw, you didn't make enough on the river to justify your turn call, so the turn call was -EV.

Best thing I ever heard about the micro-stakes and 2NL is that bluffing never works, chasing draws is -EV, and the rest of the players on the table aren't even paying attention to what you've done for the past 5 hands. All they're focused on is their cards. So LAG isn't exactly the best way to go about it. Sure you hit your hands hard, but its -EV.

"When you take something Stacks said and just discard it, remember that he is speaking from thousands and thousands of hands experience, your reaction should not be to disregard what other people say, but to learn why what they said hs merits. "

I don't discard anything any of you guys tell me if it's relevant. I read every post more than once.

I don't really agree with KT though. It's obviously a better hand head to head, and it's obviously a better hand overall, but it gets into trouble more often. I don't win money with hands like KT, which is exactly why I muck it. And I don't always raise T6 in the CO, I just did here, I wanted to play my hand, and rarely limp, it's really that simple. I don't have a list of hands that I play and a list of hands that I fold, I pretty much decide with suited connectors, however loosely connected, at the time. The 8 cent raise is to give no information away, I usually raise to 8 if I open. Maybe I will add an extra bb per limper, anyone observant enough to be taking accurate notes will still get no extra information.

Please don't assume I'm disregarding what people say. If I wasn't interested, I wouldn't open up the hand for discussion.

Stacks

I don't intend to come across as defensive, nor do I really care if I do come across as defensive. But I assure you there is no hatred in me at all.

Thanks for the last post, it's late, so I'll have another look tomorrow.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugger

I don't really agree with KT though. It's obviously a better hand head to head, and it's obviously a better hand overall, but it gets into trouble more often. I don't win money with hands like KT, which is exactly why I muck it.

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I honestly don't know how you can feel this way.

(1) Both hands are suited, and connected.

(2) KT has better equity against the range of hands he is limping (89, 66-TT, K9, JT, etc and so on). If you don't believe me do some pokerstove work.

(3) If villain's are so anxious to call with all of their draws etc, then doesn't it make sense that a hand like KT is going to perform better than T6 in the majority of situations? Not only will you have a stronger TP on average, as well as strong 2 pair, flush hands, which allows you to value bet more streets, but you are also going to find yourself in more situations where when you are double/triple barreling as you say you enjoy doing, that you will have live overcards giving you more equity when called.

equity
Hand 0: 44.457% { TT-22, A9s-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 43s, ATo-A2o, KTo+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o }

Hand 1: 55.543% { KTs }


equity
Hand 0: 55.846% { TT-22, A9s-A2s, KJs-K9s, Q8s+, J8s+, T7s+, 97s+, 86s+, 75s+, 65s, 54s, 43s, ATo-A2o, KTo+, Q9o+, J9o+, T8o+, 97o+, 86o+, 75o+, 65o }

Hand 1: 44.154% { T6s }

Goals:
Get non microstakes player to agree with something i said [x]
Have my comment quoted followed by "this" [ ]

Quote:

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Originally Posted by illness

Best thing I ever heard about the micro-stakes and 2NL is that bluffing never works, chasing draws is -EV, and the rest of the players on the table aren't even paying attention to what you've done for the past 5 hands. All they're focused on is their cards. So LAG isn't exactly the best way to go about it. Sure you hit your hands hard, but its -EV.

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[]bluffing never works
proof by counter example
-cbets
[]chasing draws is -ev
proof by maths
-insert pot odds/implied odds maths
[]players not paying attention
proof by semantics
-players are paying attention, they just have no clue what they're looking at.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Also, just a fwiw, you didn't make enough on the river to justify your turn call, so the turn call was -EV.

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I think this is mucho importanto. If you would be able to actually make money off your float there would be little hate.

Floating does not mean "calling with little equity and pray, b/c Im too lazy to actually think about ranges and correct adjustements" it´s more like "Im figuring his range to be weak here, hence I can overrep my junky hand by calling and take it away from him on later streets and since that alone might not be enough I like to take hands like overs or gutters with at least some equity"

[ ] Floating ITT

Floating means you're calling a bet, with a plan to take it down on a later street. Your examples here don't illustrate floating.

A better example would be if you have AJs and you cold call a raise preflop IP. Flop comes K72r, PFR bets, you call. Turn comes a brick, he checks and you bet and he folds.

Don't try floating in multiway pots. It's just not profitable since people play a lot more straightforward. I mean, if someone bets and gets multiple callers, chances are, someone has something. It's also much less likely that someone is betting into multiple people with air, so if an early position player bets into 3 other people, he probably has a piece of that flop. Even if you had good relative position, and you got to see that everybody else folded from a late position stab, you're stuck OOP trying to take it away. Add in possibilities of check-raises if you were in position, floating multiway sucks.

And another note, don't play anything with a bigger gap than 2 (unless it's a button open). You can never flop a strong draw (no OESD), and your gutter isn't going to be the gutter to the nuts. This means you're playing a hand that you're trying to play with good implied odds that has huge reverse implied odds, which is sooooo counter-intuitive.

You can't justify playing hands poorly and -EV just because you say you're a LAGG. I play usually play around 32/26 @6max, so I guess you'd classify me as a LAGG too, but you'll never see me do something like this. I'm pretty sure that everyone here thinks that plays like this is like burning money in the long run.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugger

I want a LAG image.

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I know a guy at 2NL that plays 6/4 and people still call his 3bets with KTo... So I don't think that it's important to have an image at 2NL...

I'm just asking out of curiosity, how can you gain an aggressive image by calling all the way down with only 3 clear outs??? Seems more like a station to me...

"Floating does not mean "calling with little equity and pray, b/c Im too lazy to actually think about ranges and correct adjustements" it´s more like "Im figuring his range to be weak here, hence I can overrep my junky hand by calling and take it away from him on later streets and since that alone might not be enough I like to take hands like overs or gutters with at least some equity""

Yes. This is exactly what I thought floating was. This is exactly why I called the turn bet. This is exactly what I was thinking. It wasn't laziness, it was calculated.

"I'm pretty sure that everyone here thinks that plays like this is like burning money in the long run."

This might be true. I don't know if he was folding to my raise on the river if it's a spade other than the 8. That's the key, not my gutshot odds. It's obviously not profitable in the long run to chase 3 outs at a bad price, but there's nine other spades that don't help me but do scare him, and I am raising these nine spades, so the question is, will he fold enough times when I represent the flush to make the turn call profitable? I would imagine so with QQ, but I'm not sure about Ax.

"Floating means you're calling a bet, with a plan to take it down on a later street. Your examples here don't illustrate floating."

So if my turn call isn't floating, what is it? Please remember I called with the intention of raising a different spade to the 8, not to hit the 8. The river was simply a bonus, and I didn't need to take the pot down with a raise. If the river is not a spade or 8, then I probably give up on it, I would imagine raising any river is not profitable.

"Also, just a fwiw, you didn't make enough on the river to justify your turn call, so the turn call was -EV."

We don't know this, because we don't know if he was folding to a raise to a different spade.

Ok, moving on to the stuff I want to thank people for...

"The whole TAGG/LAGG descriptions of players is bullshit imo."

I actually agree. For a start, while I might try to play LAG, sometimes I don't, sometimes I'm TAG instead. I don't think any players always play the same way, it's just players play a certain way when on auto-pilot. And a TAG might decide to play T6s too, he might just be getting bored with folding all his hands in position. So you're right, a player's image tells you little about his cards and his bets in any given hand.

"LOL again @ image being everything."

Maybe you're right with this paragraph. My image has certainly helped me win some big pots, that's for sure. But that's usually after 2 hours at a table, not based on notes anyone has. You're right, the pool is huge, I make notes on a fair few players, and rarely see them crop up again. And the players I'm targetting are not the regs who know how to play against people like me, I want fish. So maybe trying to give a loose image is a waste of time. But it is fun, and while I'm winning money, I don't mind winning a little less than I might for entertainment purposes. If I start losing, then it's different.

"And another note, don't play anything with a bigger gap than 2 (unless it's a button open). You can never flop a strong draw (no OESD), and your gutter isn't going to be the gutter to the nuts. This means you're playing a hand that you're trying to play with good implied odds that has huge reverse implied odds, which is sooooo counter-intuitive. "

I think you're very right here. I'll probably take this on board, adjust my hand selection accordingly.





But I'm still not playing KT. Ha.

"I'm just asking out of curiosity, how can you gain an aggressive image by calling all the way down with only 3 clear outs??? Seems more like a station to me..."

By raising the river if it's a spade other than the 8. That way, I consider myself to have more than 3 outs. I might appear to be a station from where you're sitting, that's fine, but believe me, I'm not. I can remember folding aces on three occasions in the last week, and I nearly always fold a gutshot to a bet.

It's just I'm trying to mix my game up a bit, to be honest. This idea of calling bets to represent a different draw to the one you're on is appealing to me. It's just I'd rather do it when I have 3 genuine outs than 0 genuine outs.

[x] floating itt. Villain actually had a plan to bet spade rivers, as a bluff because he believed villain's range was weak. Floating does not mean you continue with little to no equity. Here villain had some outs, and just so happened to hit his outs.

Whether the decision to float or not was prudent, given his stack size, I probably wouldn't. After villains bet on the river, he has like $0.53c behind. So in most cases on any river that he does bet, we don't stand to have much fold equity (presumably). On the rivers, he does check, then maybe, however, as evident by the way he played this hand (results. use for future hands), he isn't likely to check the river, even with his marginal hands (QQ obv).

Regarding whether the turn call was +EV or not, I'm not going to do the math right now because I'm in class, and also not 100% sure how to go about it at this time. But given typical 2nl villains, I doubt he is folding often to a shove, especially if he bets the river, so bluff raising spade rivers, probably isn't going to be as profitable as you think.

My reference to the TAGG/LAGG statement was in an attempt to say how useless using those description tags are. They do not describe villain's tendencies or leaks, and therefore does not determine how you should adjust to exploit him. And also the fact that villain's typically try to make +EV plays. Why does aggressive plays like c/raising, or bluff raising flops, double/triple barreling, even if +EV, need to be used to describe a player? If the play was the most +EV, then it was correct, and therefore should be done. Why does a player that takes those plays, need to be classified as anything other than a good player? Why does folding KK on a QJ7tt board to someone raising your cbet classify me as a TAG, if the fold was correct against villain's range?

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And another note, don't play anything with a bigger gap than 2 (unless it's a button open). You can never flop a strong draw (no OESD), and your gutter isn't going to be the gutter to the nuts. This means you're playing a hand that you're trying to play with good implied odds that has huge reverse implied odds, which is sooooo counter-intuitive.

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False. And this just goes to show how bad general statements are in poker. Are you really folding ATs in the CO because it has more than 2 gaps? Obviously not (I hope). I knew this wasn't what you meant, but how could I be sure (lol general stateaments).

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But I'm still not playing KT. Ha.

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Then you are intentionally passing on clear +EV plays. And if this is the case, then I really should stop wasting my time responds to your threads. I have shown that against a percieving limping range KT has more equity than T6. And also stated that that's mere pot equity, and that KT will see far more favorable flops to bluff with, as well as allow villain to have more worse hands from which you can extra value from. But that reasoning has obviously failed to impress you.

Why would you knowingly take a 0EV play, when you could easily take a +EV line? It makes no sense.

It's been said already, but at 2nl, there's no such thing as an image. If you go all-in say two or three times in a row, you're more likely to get called, but other than that, at 2nl nearly all of the players play their cards and don't consider what you have. I've lost many a pot when I tried to rep a card or a hand.

I've also made a ton of money when I hit a flush and just pushed all-in and get called by two pair or even top pair. They just aren't thinking about your cards. You can't have a LAG image if no one is paying attention to how you play.

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But I'm still not playing KT. Ha.

Then you are intentionally passing on clear +EV plays. And if this is the case, then I really should stop wasting my time responds to your threads. I have shown that against a percieving limping range KT has more equity than T6. And also stated that that's mere pot equity, and that KT will see far more favorable flops to bluff with, as well as allow villain to have more worse hands from which you can extra value from. But that reasoning has obviously failed to impress you.

Why would you knowingly take a 0EV play, when you could easily take a +EV line? It makes no sense.

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I was just being (un)funny. Don't take me so seriously, I'm rarely serious.
I'll play KTs sometimes, just like I sometimes play K8s on the button. KTo can go without any fuss though. Same with AT, it's trash, unless it's suited and late pos, then it's marginal. Like I said earlier, I don't have a list of hands I will and won't play. Some hands are always played (KK, AA), some always folded (83o, 93o), but most can be folded, called or raised, depending on position and action. Both KTs and T6s fall into the latter category, while KTo and T6o are folded the vast majority of the time, blinds being the only exceptions, and maybe button if everyone else folded.

Yes, you're right, KT has more equity than T6. But is KT a +ev hand? I think really I should be playing neither.

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Originally Posted by tugger

Yes, you're right, KT has more equity than T6. But is KT a +ev hand? I think really I should be playing neither.

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give us a range for villain when he raises and we plan to call with KTo, KTs, T6s, T6o and tell us what you get.

give us a range for when villain calls our raise for the same hands, and tell us what you get.

now tighten/widen that range. whats changed?

note: If equity > 50% then villain can never bet an amount that makes it -ev for us to call and thus whenever we have >50% we always have a +ev hand because at least one play (calling) has positive expectation.

go go go.

I actually have to commend OP itt for trying to think on a higher level, however you're only leveling yourself when you start planning floats where you are going to represent certain cards on later streets.

Villains stack size was just way too small to consider playing T6s in a raised pot against him. T6s is going to play well deeper stacked in position against bad players. If you wanna lag it up at this level with these types of hands, then do it when effective stack sizes are 250bb deep or so like they are often are at 2NL because people stack off so frequently.

The whole argument about KTs vs T6s is just laughable dude. KTs is far superior for isolating a 50bb stacker you're going to usually going into the flop with low SPR's and low SPR's are for TPGK, not draws.

If you find that you are spewing with this hand or getting unlucky, maybe it is your postflop skills that need work. TPGK is not the nuts and you will sometimes have to try and settle for 2 streets of value instead of 3 with it, and when villain wants to play for 100bb+ stacks then its probably time to let it go before the pot gets big.

My final thought here is if you are having trouble playing these medium strength broadway hands post flop, then why in the world are you considering playing a loose aggressive style?

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Originally Posted by tugger

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But I'm still not playing KT. Ha.

Then you are intentionally passing on clear +EV plays. And if this is the case, then I really should stop wasting my time responds to your threads. I have shown that against a percieving limping range KT has more equity than T6. And also stated that that's mere pot equity, and that KT will see far more favorable flops to bluff with, as well as allow villain to have more worse hands from which you can extra value from. But that reasoning has obviously failed to impress you.

Why would you knowingly take a 0EV play, when you could easily take a +EV line? It makes no sense.

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I was just being (un)funny. Don't take me so seriously, I'm rarely serious.
I'll play KTs sometimes, just like I sometimes play K8s on the button. KTo can go without any fuss though. Same with AT, it's trash, unless it's suited and late pos, then it's marginal. Like I said earlier, I don't have a list of hands I will and won't play. Some hands are always played (KK, AA), some always folded (83o, 93o), but most can be folded, called or raised, depending on position and action. Both KTs and T6s fall into the latter category, while KTo and T6o are folded the vast majority of the time, blinds being the only exceptions, and maybe button if everyone else folded.

Yes, you're right, KT has more equity than T6. But is KT a +ev hand? I think really I should be playing neither.

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You seem to keep hinting that you don't have certain hands that you open from certain positions, aka a hand chart. Congratulations, it's not a big noteworthy story. It's how it should be. Hand charts are retarded, etc, etc, blah.

Congrats again (non-sarcastically this time) on knowing that position, stack sizes, villain tendencies, etc all determine whether a hand is playable or not. Seriously some people seem to not understand this at 2nl.

However, as bowlboy stated, you are probably just leveling yourself. It seems you've heard the term reverse implied odds somewhere, and that in that situation KTo (or whatever other broadway hand you hate) was described as being more likely dominated than a suited connector like T6s, or 98s, etc. And while that is likely true, it's not really going to apply here.

For one, villain limp/called. Villain's aren't likely to limp/call their strong hands. Most understand it's better to raise, or to at least limp/raise. So hands like TT+, AK, and usually KQ are not likely in his range (could be, but unlikely without reads). Instead, they are limp calling loads of mid-strength marginal hands, such as JT, Q9, K9, 66-99, etc. And it's pretty blatantly obvious that a hand such as KTo is going to perform better against this range than T6s. Even if there is a chance that he's limping some of his strong hands.

Also, as I said, your preflop pot equity isn't the only factor. If you see a flop like 953tt, and are considering bluff raising a cbet, which would you prefer: T6s (no flush draw) or KTo? Obviously KTo is going to have more equity against villain's continuing range, therefore your bluff raise doesn't need as much fold equity to be +EV, and therefore it's going to show a greater profit in the long run.

I cannot fathom why some microstakes players are always so strange when it comes to hand selection. I watch my dad play sometimes (25nl), and he wants to pass on raising hands like AT/KT/K9s/AJ when it's folded to him in the CO. And when I ask why, he just says it's too marginal. Which is wrong a few levels. One, there might be a reason to legitimately fold those hands some % of the time (light 3bettor you don't know how to exploit yet, etc), but he isn't stating those reasons. And two, if it's marginal, yet still mildly +EV then why wouldn't you do it? Those hands aren't that hard to play, ESPECIALLY IN POSITION!!!! If you are folding them, knowing they are +EV, then you (and whoever else) has very little hope of making a sizable amount of money from poker.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

[x] floating itt. Villain actually had a plan to bet spade rivers, as a bluff because he believed villain's range was weak. Floating does not mean you continue with little to no equity. Here villain had some outs, and just so happened to hit his outs.

Whether the decision to float or not was prudent, given his stack size, I probably wouldn't. After villains bet on the river, he has like $0.53c behind. So in most cases on any river that he does bet, we don't stand to have much fold equity (presumably). On the rivers, he does check, then maybe, however, as evident by the way he played this hand (results. use for future hands), he isn't likely to check the river, even with his marginal hands (QQ obv).

Regarding whether the turn call was +EV or not, I'm not going to do the math right now because I'm in class, and also not 100% sure how to go about it at this time. But given typical 2nl villains, I doubt he is folding often to a shove, especially if he bets the river, so bluff raising spade rivers, probably isn't going to be as profitable as you think.

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Oh he did he say he was going to try to take it away on a spade. I probably skimmed through the thread too quickly, so my bad. It's still not the best illustration of a float though.

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Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

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And another note, don't play anything with a bigger gap than 2 (unless it's a button open). You can never flop a strong draw (no OESD), and your gutter isn't going to be the gutter to the nuts. This means you're playing a hand that you're trying to play with good implied odds that has huge reverse implied odds, which is sooooo counter-intuitive.

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False. And this just goes to show how bad general statements are in poker. Are you really folding ATs in the CO because it has more than 2 gaps? Obviously not (I hope). I knew this wasn't what you meant, but how could I be sure (lol general stateaments).

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I'll try to be more careful posting. I just thought that it would be common sense for people to play a hand like big or suited aces. I guess I didn't think people would misinterpret it that way.

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Originally Posted by ColdDecked

Oh he did he say he was going to try to take it away on a spade. I probably skimmed through the thread too quickly, so my bad. It's still not the best illustration of a float though.

I'll try to be more careful posting. I just thought that it would be common sense for people to play a hand like big or suited aces. I guess I didn't think people would misinterpret it that way.

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Regarding the float, I agree. Since, the way the hand turned out, he never actually bet/raised, which is typically how a float would play out (call flop, bet a checked turn, etc).

Regarding the general statement thing, yeah no worries. I was just giving you a hard time. Your statement wouldn't really be misinterpreted (or at least I would hope not). But in this case, OP is wanting to fold KT while happy to play T6s, so I thought maybe a bit of clearing up was necessary.

Jesus, how many tables / hands are you playing to make $100 at 2nl in a week...?

$5ish an hour is what any solid player should make at 2NL just by playing ABC.

Its like walking down a money buffet. Albeit, you can only fill your plate with pennies before you have to go back to your table to roll them.. but it still adds up.

Sorry, I just don't remember that many +50BI weeks back then. Guess I didn't put in the volume back then.

"You seem to keep hinting that you don't have certain hands that you open from certain positions, aka a hand chart. Congratulations, it's not a big noteworthy story. It's how it should be. Hand charts are retarded, etc, etc, blah. "

I think hand charts are retarded. I used to use one. They're great for a beginner to understand what hands are profitable, and what aren't, but it shouldn't take too long to be able to put it down. I was finding I was missing too much pre flop action, like timing tells, by scanning charts to find out that KJ on the sb to a raise is a fold.

"Also, as I said, your preflop pot equity isn't the only factor. If you see a flop like 953tt, and are considering bluff raising a cbet, which would you prefer: T6s (no flush draw) or KTo?"

Yes, I understand your point. Of course, it doesn't matter what cards I have if he folds, but if he calls I have more chance of winning the hand if I hold KTo, not T6s.

"Jesus, how many tables / hands are you playing to make $100 at 2nl in a week...?"

Four tables, for around six hours a day, sometimes longer. It's around 1500 hands by the time I go to bed, I'll have a look tonight when I'm done. I reckon it's around 10,000 hands, so that's an average of a cent profit a hand.

[x] OP runs good.
[x] OP's posts and attitude tilt the shit out of me.
[ ] 10k is a large sample of hands.
[ ] Trying to achieve a LAG image at 2NL is not retarded.

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Originally Posted by tugger

Villain is a noob

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what kind of read is this?

He's playing 2NL, I'd it's as accurate as it is useless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

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Originally Posted by tugger

Villain is a noob

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what kind of read is this?

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Jesus you guys are right cunts.

It's not a read. It's explaining why I have no read.

man you're a cunt because you can't take advice from people that have absolutely crushed your stake and have moved on to cheeseburger blinds instead of being stuck playing for cheeseburger stacks.

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Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

man you're a cunt because you can't take advice from people that have absolutely crushed your stake and have moved on to cheeseburger blinds instead of being stuck playing for cheeseburger stacks.

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"what kind of read is this?"

"[x] OP's posts and attitude tilt the shit out of me. "

Sorry, is this the advice you refer to? These are the cunts that I refer to.

People who actually take the time to write something constructive, thank you.

I was once in your position, and yeah I had a shitty attitude, and yeah, I still do sometimes - but I have worked on it and am still working on it. I aplogize if my comment about your read was unnecessarily sarcastic sounding, but you do need to consider how blanket statements such as 'this guy is a noob' can affect your thinking in how you play a hand.

What I'm getting at here is by saying something like 'this guy sucks' or 'this guy is a noob' will typically lead to FPS crap because you'll have it in your mind that you can 'outplay them' regardless of your hand. If you don't wanna believe that fine, but I've been there and have had the same leak - only instead of discovering it while I was losing cheeseburgers, I discovered it while I was losing steaks (triple A ftw).

That's a bit more constructive. I gotta be honest, I'm just tired of holding back when I think people have their head up their arse, I'm past being polite now. But, if you wanna be constructive, that's better.

I'm not attacking somebody just because he's a noob, or because I think he sucks. Even terrible players win big pots. I'm attacking somebody because I think he's weak. When I say "this guy is a noob", I say it so you all know I know nothing about him, not because I'm hunting him down in particular.

But you're right, I do feel I can outplay many of the micro players, it seems to be profitable for me. If I think he has a flush draw, I'll make him pay to chase it and make him fold when he misses. He'll hit one in three, but that's fine, because I win two in three. I'm not wildly taking every oppurtunity to outplay him, I'm trying to pick my spots.

To demonstrate that am taking on board what people say, I'm paying more attention to stack sizes before picking my spot. I'm inclined to agree he was probably calling whatever the river, so yeah I should be more careful, and yeah I shoulda pushed the river here.

Its cool to know one player is a "noob" and we dont care if you hunt one player down, you should be looking to be in every profitable spot possible, and a ton of those are with fish. Main qualms with that "read" is that it tells you nothing about the player. Try to have an idea that a player is a fishy calling station who will flat 3 bets for set value without odds, or something like that.

M2M nailed your fps though if you are saying you can "know" he has a fd and then make him pay to chase followed by making him fold when he misses ( making him fold when he misses implies you are doing this with complete air, otherwise you would be happy to show down). See thing about "noobs" is that their betting patterns are often going to make very little sense, so when you think you are making him pay to draw and then making him fold when he misses river, you could well be walking into his elaborate unlogical trap thathe made because, again, he's a "noob". Stick to ABC and you will crush your limit.

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Originally Posted by tugger

That's a bit more constructive. I gotta be honest, I'm just tired of holding back when I think people have their head up their arse, I'm past being polite now. But, if you wanna be constructive, that's better.

I'm not attacking somebody just because he's a noob, or because I think he sucks. Even terrible players win big pots. I'm attacking somebody because I think he's weak. When I say "this guy is a noob", I say it so you all know I know nothing about him, not because I'm hunting him down in particular.

But you're right, I do feel I can outplay many of the micro players, it seems to be profitable for me. If I think he has a flush draw, I'll make him pay to chase it and make him fold when he misses. He'll hit one in three, but that's fine, because I win two in three. I'm not wildly taking every oppurtunity to outplay him, I'm trying to pick my spots.

To demonstrate that am taking on board what people say, I'm paying more attention to stack sizes before picking my spot. I'm inclined to agree he was probably calling whatever the river, so yeah I should be more careful, and yeah I shoulda pushed the river here.

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Actually what was funny about what Micro said about "Villain is a Noob" is that:

1. You are a n00b.
2. You only have 3 hands on him and know him to be a n00b.

Seriously man, when people make comments that sound harsh or sarcastic on this forum, 99% of the time it is to shock you into improvement and is intended as constructive.

If you stick with this and get better over the next year or two, you will be the one calling n00bs out on these things.

As for the hand, your play wasn't that bad postflop, but you should of never been in the hand in the first place.

I would be raising this river 100% of the time.. at this level worse hands call here all day long. I doubt he's betting .20 into $70 if he actually hit the flush. It looks like he as basically block betting the whole way.

BTW, now every time I get stacked at 2NL I'll be sad that I coulda used that money for a cheeseburger :(

You could get a great deal more out of this if you stopped talking and started listening.

Stacks is a freaking saint for trying to explain this to you with your attitude.
I'm not, so I'm not going to bother with you.

And because I thought it was hilarious, I filtered my results for KT.

http://img11.imageshack.us/img11/1315/ktarefolded.gif

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($3.82)
SB ($0.98)
BB ($5.52)
UTG ($5.31)
UTG+1 ($3.90)
MP1 ($0.96)
MP2 ($4.66)
MP3 ($8.20)
Hero (CO) ($5.01)

Preflop: Hero is CO with 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
3 folds, MP2 calls $0.02, MP3 calls $0.02, Hero bets $0.12, 3 folds, MP2 calls $0.10, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.29) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP2 checks, Hero bets $0.25, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.29 | Rake: $0

Results:
Hero didn't show 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (nothing).
Outcome: Hero won $0.29

Am I getting better?

No. The iso is just very uneccessary imo and leads to a raised multiway pot a good amount of the time.

As for post flop, I'd always c-bet here so yeah that's fine given that you've isolated a weakish range containing plenty of missed broadways etc.

Seriously though preflop is going to be spewy over the long run at these stakes b/c you'll see a multiway pot with a very weak hand pretty often where people don't like to fold any pair post flop.

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Originally Posted by tugger

but screw that, I want a LAG image.

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oh dear

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Originally Posted by tugger

The turn is where I'm floating. I'm priced in if I'm flush drawing. I'm not drawing on just the 8, I consider a spade to be good for me, because I have something to represent with a raise and push him off his hand.

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i don't quite understand how you are calling with implied odds to the straight, yet assume you will have river fold equity if the flush hits. Um, and now the flush hits and you think that he has it.

you do know what a float is, right?

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Originally Posted by daven

i don't quite understand how you are calling with implied odds to the straight, yet assume you will have river fold equity if the flush hits.

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People tend to be a lot more scared when a flush completes than when a gutshot completes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Carroters

No. The iso is just very uneccessary imo and leads to a raised multiway pot a good amount of the time.

As for post flop, I'd always c-bet here so yeah that's fine given that you've isolated a weakish range containing plenty of missed broadways etc.

Seriously though preflop is going to be spewy over the long run at these stakes b/c you'll see a multiway pot with a very weak hand pretty often where people don't like to fold any pair post flop.

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Heh, I only played the hand so I could post it here. I saw ten six diamonds at the cut off and thought of you guys. The thing is, it doesn't really matter what hand I have. I'm winning over half of these raised pots at the flop, assuming I get heads up. I couldn't really care what hand I hold at the CO or button, if it's suited and linked, and no-one has raised, it's a play. And if I'm playing from this position, I'm raising. I'll fold unsuited trash in this position. I'll fold T6s ip to a raise. I'll play tight oop. But limpfests and foldfests, I could fold my T6, but I'm at the CO, it's my last late position hand of the orbit. Now I know you guys will be telling me that's lack of patience, and perhaps it is, but I do want to have an image at the table of someone who wants to get involved in pots. It's then a battle of taking down the bigger pots while letting go of the smaller ones. Playing ABC poker is all well and good, and I know it's more profitable in the long run, but it's less exciting, and it's also transparant. I've got my notes on the ABCers, and they don't get paid off by me very often.

I'm playing poker not just to make money, but to have fun.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugger

I'm playing poker not just to make money, but to have fun.

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well, this is why we've been failing you so much in giving you proper advice. for some crazy reason we've been trying to tell you how to make the most money, maximize EV and be the best player.

if you're looking for advice on how to have the most fun, then the advice is simple: just play any of the FTR regs HU4ROLLZ.

why play T6s? why not play 87s, 75s, 22, T9o, A2s or any number of hands that are way better than T6s? like, i could go into pokerstove, and click hands till i hit 40% of them, and each one would be better than T6s. AND THATS 40% OF HANDS! like, if you played that many, thatd be pretty lagg, and i guess thats my problem with the whole raising t6s thing.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by JKDS

why play T6s? why not play 87s, 75s, 22, T9o, A2s or any number of hands that are way better than T6s? like, i could go into pokerstove, and click hands till i hit 40% of them, and each one would be better than T6s. AND THATS 40% OF HANDS! like, if you played that many, thatd be pretty lagg, and i guess thats my problem with the whole raising t6s thing.

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Fair enough. It's not like T6 is a hand of mine, or anything. If I get it earlier than CO, it's going in the muck, just like most hands. But maybe I am playing 40% of hands if it gets to me on the CO or BU unraised. Suited connectors, pairs and broadway make up a good percentage of hands. I like to play suited cards because people see me bluff flush boards, so I anticipate big pots when I do have flush.

Quote:

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well, this is why we've been failing you so much in giving you proper advice. for some crazy reason we've been trying to tell you how to make the most money, maximize EV and be the best player.

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OK, from a money point of view. I reckon I get heads up or three way around 70% of the time when I raise with my 40% or whatever in the CO or BU, and I'm taking down around 50% of these pots on the flop, higher when it's heads up. Taking into account my full range, I'm probably ahead at showdown just under half the time. The times I am behind are usually the result of a misread... he has top pair, not flush draw. Other times I have slowed down because I think he has top pair, and he has flush draw and high card. The times I correctly nail him on the flush draw and make him pay flop and turn, then fold the river, well that's two in three times I'll take that down, and the one in three I'm folding. The times my hand is ahead at showdown, I usually take down smaller than average pots with hands like KQ, AJ etc and bigger than average pots with hands like 56s, T8s, 33 etc, probably because of the increased liklihood he has high pair beaten by well disguised 2pr or set. Hands like AA, KK, QQ usually take down the blinds, take down the raised pot at the flop, or lose lots of money. I'm nearly at the point of just shoving pre flop AA/KK.

I'm good at maths, but I can't get my head around that mess of percentages. It seems to me that it all adds up to a profit.

But I do appreciate what you guys are saying. At micors, ABC poker will make more money more quickly. If every decision is based on ev, then for sure I'm going to make money long term. My play might be +ev, but it's not the highest ev.

I dunno. Can't you blame me for having fun at the micros? I'll have to play boring old ABC when I step up if I don't want to blow my bankroll, so it's all about having fun while it lasts. I see it like university, you should be learning, but instead you're just getting shitfaced every night and shagging skanks.

Having fun at the deuce is all fine and good, hell I've done it from time to time, but when I do make plays like isolating light I do realize the hit I take in immediate spew just isn't going to be compensated by any future value from my LAG image because that would require the field to be paying attention. Guess what they don't, plain and simple. Okay blanket statement - there are a few people paying attention at that level, using a hud and excersing good BR management but they are a very small percentage of the field.

People post hands here looking for advice/critique on their play. Everybody here can only assume that you were doing so for these reasons. Most of the advice/comments on the hand were spot on whether you like it or not. Now the fact that you were just having fun comes out, and I'm asking myself 'wth couldn't we all be informed of this say two dozen posts ago??'.

If you want to get good advice then continue posting hands and asking questions, but please in the future, let us all know whether or not you were just having fun so that we do not waste our time on the discussion of the hand.

Quote:

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The times I am behind are usually the result of a misread... he has top pair, not flush draw.

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I was going to make a pretty long post about ranges, then couldnt be bothered, then you posted this but I still cant be bothered. So Ill just say that I think you overestimate your ability to read people if you think you can put someone on a flush draw when they play flush draws in the same way as they play TPTK, TPGK, straight draws and maybe even low overpairs or middle pairs on some boards. I also suspect that every time you guess right you allow it to reinforce your belief, while every time you get it wrong you blame it on a flukey bad read. The reality is that a lot of your river bets are going to be into flopped top pairs, rivered pairs, rivered gutshot straights and all sorts of other things that arent going to fold just because a flush card didnt come in. Id suggest you take a typical one of your hands, assign a range of other hands that make sense for villain to be holding after the flop and math out the value of your play based on that. Id be interested to see it.

BowlBoy

It's about money and fun. I posted the second T6s hand because I wanted to show I am actually taking in some of what is said! The main difference of course if the pre flop raise, adding extra bb's for each limper, and then a near pot sized bet on a flush board is clearly pricing out the flush draw, so gives the illusion I have a hand to protect. But of course I have clearly ignored the advice when it comes to starting hand selection. But again, I'll say it's not the T6s that made me raise, it was my position and the action before me. I'm raising a lot of hands here.

Truth be told, I sense a lot of the negative feeling towards me stems from bad beats that you guys have had to people like me. You're in a raised pot with someone, so he can't possibly have 64. Can he? Jesus, he's got 64. WTF??? Of course, after 5 minutes, you comfort yourself in the knowledge that over time, I'm paying your AK with my 64s. But of course that's not necessarily the case. The times 64 is losing from the flop, I fold cheaply. The times AK is losing from the flop, do they fold cheaply? Maybe you all do, but you're not a micro-fish. So can I make money playing 64s against players like you holding AK? Highly unlikely. But against micro-fish? Seems so. So if a hand is profitable in certain positions for me, then surely I should play it?

I guess this whole advice thing, it's all very well and good saying T6s is a bad hand to raise with, but by telling me to fold it, you're basically saying "play like me". Is that what we all want in poker? Everyone playing the same style? I'm not averse to people criticising my play, but I'm not here to be told what hands to play. I can decide for myself if a hand is playable at any given time.

As an example, I was playing a four handed game with friends at home a few months back. Russ is very aggressive, and he opened the pot utg with a x4 raise. I suspected he was raising light. Dale calls. I suspect Dale is calling light. I reraise with 93o!! Mike calls his bb, alarmingly, and Russ and Dale both fold quickly. I take the pot down with a hefty flop c-bet oop. Now, is 93o a reraise hand? Of course not. Not if you're playing ABC. But I assess whether a hand is playable, and to what extent, when it's on me. I don't intend to change this part of my game, I don't want to play hand chart poker. I want to play the hands I choose to play better, both pre flop and post flop. That's why I post the hands, so I can be told to raise more to isolate, and shove the river, and to not attack people who are short stacked, not so I can be told what hands to fold pre flop.

You might be interested to know I'm playing KT a lot more on the button and CO. That's something else I've taken from this discussion. I can get away from TP shit kicker without a problem, and the 2pr and set odds are more or less the same (it's a raised pot, he's more likely to hold a king than a six), but my straight odds are better, and drawing to the nuts. If T6 makes me money in late position, then KT should make me more, hence, I should play it if it's unraised.

And a hand to show you I'm not a mug who likes giving cash away, like MP2...

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG ($1.07)
MP1 ($2.55)
MP2 ($3.33)
CO ($1.95)
Hero (Button) ($5.79)
SB ($1.74)
BB ($5.10)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, MP1 bets $0.10, MP2 raises to $0.20, 4 folds, MP1 raises to $2.55 (All-In), MP2 calls $2.35

Flop: ($5.13) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($5.13) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($5.13) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $5.13 | Rake: $0.25

Results:
MP1 had Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (two pair, Aces and sixes).
MP2 had Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (full house, Jacks over sixes).
Outcome: MP2 won $4.88

Right, so you post on a poker strategy forum for advice, and when given advice thats just people telling you to play like them which is bad?

Solid thinking there.

This is a typical hand. Am I right to raise him?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($11.11)
Button ($2.97)
SB ($1.56)
BB ($6.23)
UTG ($3)
MP1 ($2.94)
Hero (MP2) ($1.93)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
2 folds, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, SB calls $0.07, 1 fold

Flop: ($0.18) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
SB bets $0.10, Hero raises to $0.30, 1 fold

Total pot: $0.38 | Rake: $0

Results:
Hero didn't show Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (nothing).
Outcome: Hero won $0.38

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Right, so you post on a poker strategy forum for advice, and when given advice thats just people telling you to play like them which is bad?

Solid thinking there.

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I think you miss my point. I don't want to argue with people. I just want to improve my game, without having to wait for the best hands. I firmly believe you can play profitable poker at micro levels playing a wide range of hands. I'm doing it. I would like to tweak my game so I can make more money playing a wide range of hands. Is that so bad?

As a general rule I've found isolating wide IP to be good v's 1 limper, and I've found that isolating wide OOP at all, and IP v's more than 1 limper to be a good way to lose money. The more limpers there are, the more people are likely to see the flop, and the more people that see the flop, the more likely you are to need to showdown the best hand to win.


Theres plenty of hands in poker, you dont need to try to force things with crap pocket cards.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

As a general rule I've found isolating wide IP to be good v's 1 limper, and I've found that isolating wide OOP at all, and IP v's more than 1 limper to be a good way to lose money. The more limpers there are, the more people are likely to see the flop, and the more people that see the flop, the more likely you are to need to showdown the best hand to win.


Theres plenty of hands in poker, you dont need to try to force things with crap pocket cards.

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I think you're right here. At first, I was going wild in any position with poor hands, but it didn't take long to realise this was a leak. Now I just play loose and wild on the CO or BU with no raises in front of me. I still might limp/call sc's and pp's, and might make the occasional loose raise from utg, just because a raise from utg always looks strong, even to micro donks, but I don't do this often.

AJs is fine, although you may well be bluffing with the best hand. Lots of bad players just think donking at paired flops with any two cards makes for a good bluff. Its the equivalent of a c-bet but they're giving you extra money.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

AJs is fine, although you may well be bluffing with the best hand. Lots of bad players just think donking at paired flops with any two cards makes for a good bluff. Its the equivalent of a c-bet but they're giving you extra money.

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That's exactly how I saw it. I wasn't letting him take my c-bet away. Seem like the old paired board bluff to me. Even if he was winning, he had a vulnerable small pair at best, and even if he calls it, he couldn't take any more pressure unless he gets lucky and hits boat. Thanks for the extra 10 cents buddy.

Its not a question of letting him take your cbet away. Stop thinking that just because you have the initiative that its your right to cbet. The question is whether its best to raise now and get him to fold his air/weak hands, or call and work out what you're doing later. I generally prefer just to raise and have him fold now than risk him catching some piece later, or 'bluff catching' and finding out he has something dumb that actually beats me, like 44.

About the last hand, as a general rule with inexperienced players I put them on air when they donk bet me. At NL2 it does seem to be true for the most part. I'd raise him as well.

About the rest of the thread, I can't believe regulars here had/have so much patience. Some people need to learn some modesty and respect.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClairvoyantX

About the last hand, as a general rule with inexperienced players I put them on air when they donk bet me. At NL2 it does seem to be true for the most part. I'd raise him as well.

About the rest of the thread, I can't believe regulars here had/have so much patience. Some people need to learn some modesty and respect.

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I don't think anything was wrong with my AJ either. And of course it's about taking away my c-bet. I'm not always raising here, I just am if I think the donk bet of his was an attempt to take away my c-bet. I would imagine that any decent player with a hand he feels is winning is c/raising me, to which I fold.

The rest of the thread, I'm not so sure what the fuss is about. Some people need to learn modesty and respect? What, like people telling me that I'm playing cheesburger levels? Is this the modesty you refer to? There's a bit of double standards going on, that's for sure. Respect? No-one seems to respect the fact I want to play a wide range of hands, it's just "Don't play T6, idiot" and if I say I want to play loose in position, it's all "why post hands if you don't want advice?". I do want advice. I just don't want to be told what hands to play. Where's the respect coming my way? There is none at all, so why should I show anyone else any respect? Just because they're not at cheesburger levels? Maybe I'll show some respect when people stop showing me arrogance. Until then, it seems I'm destined to argue with people every other post about respect, modesty, arrogance and whatever else people want to throw my way.

I respect OP. He's a swell guy. He can outplay sixteen and doesn't afraid of anything.

Also, who came up with this concept of respect as some kind of double dutch handparty, honestly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugger

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ClairvoyantX

About the last hand, as a general rule with inexperienced players I put them on air when they donk bet me. At NL2 it does seem to be true for the most part. I'd raise him as well.

About the rest of the thread, I can't believe regulars here had/have so much patience. Some people need to learn some modesty and respect.

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I don't think anything was wrong with my AJ either. And of course it's about taking away my c-bet. I'm not always raising here, I just am if I think the donk bet of his was an attempt to take away my c-bet. I would imagine that any decent player with a hand he feels is winning is c/raising me, to which I fold.

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Why do you even post hands if you feel you already know everything? You say you raised because 'he wasn't going to take away your cbet'. Bjsaust says "it's not about him taking away your cbet", and that that shouldn't be your decision in deciding whether to raise or not. And you come back saying "Of course it's about taking away my c-bet".

I mean now it seems so apparent that bjsaust shouldn't have bothered to reply to your hand history, because you already knew what you did and did not want to hear.

I don't know why I am even bothering to reply, because I'm certain my logic will fall upon deaf ears as well. But nonetheless, I'll point out your wrong logic once again. That's how I get my jollies obviously.

What bjsaust was getting at was whether it's better to call, and re-evaluate on future streets because there is a high likelihood that you could have the best hand now, or raise and take down the pot now?

I believe, calling the flop here is a fair bit better than raising. And you should be calling if you believe his range is what you said it was "air". Why? Because if his range is predominantly air, then you are ahead. If he has hands like JT, QJ, 76, etc, then your AJ is ahead, so calling is better as it allows him to put in more money when behind.

When you raise here, you are putting yourself in a position where, yes you are protecting your somewhat vulnerable Ace high against his weaker unpaired hands that have appox 6 outs. However, it's also very likely he will only call your raise with a better hand, in which you have successed in building a pot with an inferior hand to his range. Or he's folding, in which case you likely have the best hand. That is worse is folding, and better is calling, and as we know this typically makes for a poor bet/raise.

OP, Please tell me you are indeed a joke account made by iopq and Sir Pawnalot to channel hatred at FTR?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by tugger

Truth be told, I sense a lot of the negative feeling towards me stems from bad beats that you guys have had to people like me.

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that wasn't even an FYP; OP actually said this.