Beating the Micros: Is it worth it?

Hello!

I'm new to the FTR forums, although I've been using the very handy articles for a few weeks now.

In perusing the Beginner's Circle forums, I've seen some discussions of people trying to "beat the micros" -- it makes me wonder: is that where I should start?

My plan has been to start with a low bankroll, the cheapest tables, and grind my way up. However, I'm wondering if the style of poker played in the cheap tables is sufficiently *different* from other levels of stakes that learning to "beat the micros" might not be a waste of time?

After all, I don't want to stay in the micros!

How much money do you have?

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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

How much money do you have?

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Well, I put $50 in at PokerStars to start my "career".

I'm a successful professional, so I could afford considerably more than that.

However, I figured it would be dumb to say, throw in $1000 only to get busted down to the cheap tables anyway.

When I say I'm a beginner, I mean it. I learned the rules 2 weeks ago. I have to remind myself that a full house beats a flush, usually after someone's full house busts my flush.

Yes, it's worth it. Learn to play poker for cheap before you move up. Once you've made your money, then move up. At each level, you will learn. Sure, what you learn at 2nl won't necessarily apply at 100nl, but it's the process that's important. Over time you will get better and you will move up in stakes.

A lot of people here including myself started out at 2nl. You say you are a complete novice at poker. Consider 2nl a cheap way of learning the game. Post some hands you had trouble with, read as much as you can. Think of microstakes poker in this lame school analogy: You didn't start in college, you started in kindergarten (in the States anyway). What you learned in kindergarten doesn't necessarily apply to what you learn in college, but it gives you the important foundation to get you started and on your way.

Ok, that makes sense.

And I suppose the emotional control and mental discipline is generalizable regardless of the card strategy and tactical lessons of the table.

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Originally Posted by JackWrangler

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Originally Posted by BennyLaRue

How much money do you have?

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Well, I put $50 in at PokerStars to start my "career".

I'm a successful professional, so I could afford considerably more than that.

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Depends what you want then. If your ultimate goal is to play at higher stakes but you want to build on your knowledge gradually (ie. slowly) and cheaply, start at 2NL like these ppl are saying. If your ultimate goal is to play at higher stakes but you're impatient and don't mind losing money, start at 10NL or higher.

You'll get a lot of advice on this forum that starting at 2NL is the only way to go, bankroll management and all that stuff. And personally, I follow that advice because I don't want to redeposit ever. But it's not the only way to go. If you have the cash to burn and won't have fun playing 2NL, don't. Know that the higher the level you start at, the more likely you'll get your ass handed to you initially but it's gotta be fun as well as financially rewarding, right? Understand the risk, but accept it if that's your thing.

Starting at 2NL will teach you BR management and self-control so that can't be too bad.

For even successful live poker players, I'd still recommend starting @ the bottom with online games, but you should ESPECIALLY start @ the lowest games if you are new to the game itself. The risk of starting out too high and losing money just doesn't outweigh the advantages of starting @ the bottom and working your way up. One of the main reasons I advocate this method is that it DOES NOT take long to move up if you are a winning player. I started @ $2NL in December and less than a year later I'm playing $50NL and well on track to play $100NL before December. If it took years to move up from the bottom, I could maybe see an argument to start higher if you think you have the chops, but it just doesn't take long for WINNING PLAYERS. I also haven't logged what many would consider a large volume of hands - about 1500 per week. Obviously YOUR results will vary. You will play better or worse, log more or less hands, but if you play better, you'll just get there faster, and if you play worse, it's just as well that you started @ the bottom to work out the kinks. Good luck!

i like the avatar. hot chicks are overrated, miright?

ok seriously though, if you wanna start a bit higher up, then deposit 125 and start at 5nl, or something like that. don't start any higher than that. in fact, if you're still such a beginner that you need practice recognizing what hands beat which and when the board counterfeits your hand and figuring out normal betting structure (betting 3/4 PSB, raising 3x's, raising preflop 4bb's+1 for each limper and so forth), then you might wanna even start at play money for like at least 100 hands and pay close attention to such things.

i recommend 2nl for a start because you'd be ABSOLUTELY amazed how much one needs to learn before they can even be considered not a complete poker retard (all the things i mentioned, + knowing about donk betting and pot odds, and at least getting a vague sense of how to play draws, recognizing board structure, at least beginning to think of ranges, knowing what a cbet is and what spots you can potentially use it, getting a poker HUD program and setting it up and knowing how to play against certain players and so on and so on and so on).

really, the game's AWESOME, with how much there is to learn before you can even beat 25nl 6-max.

SUMMARY
- put in a couple of hours at play money tables, setting up PT3 or equivalent programs and figuring out how to use it; studying the very very basics of the game like betting structure and paying attention to board textures and noticing what beats what when.

- move on to 2nl, and you may be able to beat this game pretty quickly because it's hella soft, but always realize that you always have a bunch to learn (i still have to study like crazy just to keep my head above water).

read articles here, if you're looking for more of the basic nuts and bolts of what are implied odds and stuff then you can start out reading some things at like "The Poker Bank" (even though that site was prolly written by some 100nl busto, and is really mediocre, it's good for beginners). post hands here, and be amazed by how many things you can do wrong in a single hand, and be like OMG it's awesome that i'm winning and i STILL have all this much to learn. read renton's guide to beating small stakes, but don't take it as the holy bible. etc.

-good luck, and go pwn some bitches

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Originally Posted by Jason

The risk of starting out too high and losing money just doesn't outweigh the advantages of starting @ the bottom and working your way up.

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See, this is what I'm saying. This cannot be stated as fact. The risk/reward ratio is different for every person, depending on the value that person places on the amount of money at risk and on his or her time.

I'm not stating it as fact. I'm stating it as my opinion based on the struggles I read about day in and day out from people losing money plus the fact that only 40% of poker players are winning players to begin with. It's tough to win @ poker, so I think it's a safe bet to start @ the bottom and see how high up you can get. If you start too high, you WILL stymie your progress through losing and moving down and the frustration associated with that. It's a small price to pay in my opinion to possibly start too low and then quickly move up.

If you cant beat the micros, you wont beat higher stakes. The skills to beat the micros are the basics you need later on.

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Originally Posted by surviva316

i like the avatar. hot chicks are overrated, miright?

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Yeah, I don't really get the hot chicks avatar. Unless you *are* a hot chick. Of course, I'm not a dog, either, so what do I know?

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Originally Posted by surviva316

you might wanna even start at play money for like at least 100 hands and pay close attention to such things.

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Yeah, I've been down that road, and actually I do have the hand order and the basic value betting down for pre-flop. Just working from there at this point.

I played my play money from 1000 to 50000 but got really bored of everyone just throwing it around all the time and going all in on any crap, so I went to the minimum real money tables at PokerStars, which is a lot more fun.

I'm definitely reading (& rereading) articles here, and some other online resources, and also TV poker shows, although honestly, at the penny tables everyone plays a lot more cautiously than in high stakes, which puzzles me a little. When I try to get a little more aggressive on a table, however, I usually lose money to better hands, so clearly I need to iron out some wrinkles in that process, because I'd think taking aggression to a passive table should at least win more in blinds & whatnot. Anyway, so far I haven't lost my money & am continuing to study to the point where I can actually show some consistent wins.

Y'all have convinced me to carry on where I'm at for now.

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-good luck, and go pwn some bitches

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Thanks, 316.

Play money is a waste of time and could actually be counter-productive. Micros most people care at least a little about winning even if they're bad.

There are alot of basics to learn, and 2nl can teach you thoes. Read Ryan Fee's guide, but again it's not the bible(to find that search "good 6max link" in beginner's circle). Become acquainted with online poker glossaries so you can understand terms people use, and try to think of every step as ptBB's and BI's not $.

I'm thinking of starting online on micros, as well. It seems to make sense to me-- it's a small way to gain experience and learn more without losing too much.

Another point to be made in favor of starting at the low micros is that with the much smaller amounts of money the concept of long-term variance with hands will be a lot more solid. Bad beats and coolers will effect you less and you'll get a better understanding of the long term aspects of poker variance.

Once you get all the basics down get a HuD program, this is *essential* I think to your online poker play, and they all give free trials. Also, getting a rakeback deal of some sort if you play a decent amount is very important, I can pay my rent monthly entirely from what I earn via rakeback, rakeback is awesome.

It's good you've decided to start out with the micro's, dude. Adding another couple of success stories to Jason's, I started at $10 and have $1600~ now, micro2macro started with $50 and is at god knows what, but its at least double me lol, and BooG690 started with $50 too, i believe and is up to $2k+, so it can be done. (Also, we've all done this in under a year, I started in November of 08 and have played VERY little poker since May.)

Good luck, and tear that shit up yo.

Dranger is my lawyer. He has already spoken for me. It can be done. Some blogs started from 5NL so you may be interested in reading some of those, here's one that does. Dranger and Micro2macro also have blogs that start at 5NL. If you ever need help, feel free to ask for it.

If you want to chat with some of us and learn how to play poker in a chat room environment, join the IRC. You won't be disapoointed.

Aren't you a dead gay porn star?

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Originally Posted by BooG690

Dranger and Micro2macro also have blogs that start at 5NL. .

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You are a tard sir, my blog started at 2nl. :)

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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate

Aren't you a dead gay porn star?

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lol

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Originally Posted by dranger7070

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Originally Posted by BooG690

Dranger and Micro2macro also have blogs that start at 5NL. .

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You are a tard sir, my blog started at 2nl. :)

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The funny part is...mine did too. I'm a dumbass.

2NL frustrates the crap outta me. But im gonna beat it.

Very unuseful post I know but I need 10 to start posting HH's..

You have very good advices in these posts.I will recommend you one more thing.Try to play in different poker rooms online.The poker is not the same game in every online poker room.You don't need to deposit money in every room.There is a lot of ways to start your bankroll.
I think that playing in different poker rooms will help you if you try to play live poker.

You learn a lot and earn a lot while grinding out the micros, whereas you can learn a lot and dispose of a lot of your income starting out at higher stakes.

OP,

you have the luxury of having a replenishing bankroll from the sounds of it. therefore, i would start at the lowest stakes i would take seriously. if that is .10/.25c blinds, start there. if its .05/.10 blinds, start there. it really doesnt matter......if you can keep replenishing your "bankroll." have fun, learn the game, and study where you may be going wrong so you continue to improve.

no one can tell you where you SHOULD start. we all have different values we place on specific amounts of money. we all have different adversities to risk/gambling/running out of money and starting over. so, make up your own mind.

however, remember that the higher you start, the harder you make it on yourself to learn fast. the competition, especially today, is tougher than ever online. starting too high may actually stunt your growth with the concepts you pick up on.

recommendation: (and take this with a grain of salt) start at about 5NL, play about 10k hands, if you are winning for more than a 5 ptbb/100, move up. if not, start to review your hands. keep moving up after 10k intervals until you can't comfortably replenish your bankroll if it disappears. and, dont be afraid, due to pride, to move back down a level if things dont go so well.

*the above recommendation is dramatically different than i would suggest to someone that didnt mention they are a "successful professional" and could afford "significantly more" than the $50 OP is starting with.

(i guess that was post 4k...lol. maybe it should have been deeper, but i think it's fitting it was in the BC.....where it all began. make use of it, as i'm sure it's of the same quality of all my others....lol.)

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Originally Posted by JackWrangler

Well, I put $50 in at PokerStars to start my "career".
I'm a successful professional, so I could afford considerably more than that.

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put in $50 to start, but move up more quickly than most.
I suggest
1) grind $2nl until bankroll =$70
2) at br=$70, deposit another $50 and grind $5nl until bankroll = $180, move back down to 2nl if bankroll drops to $90
3) at br = $180, deposit another $50 and grind $10nl until $400, move back to $5nl if bankroll drops to $180.
4) at br = $400, see how you feel. You'll know by then what makes most sense.
5) at some point, withdraw the net amount you have deposited instead of moving up in stakes. Trust me, it will feel good!

The reasons I suggest this are numerous, ask if it doesn't seem obvious.

I think it is good to establish that you can play winning poker even if it is only at 2nl. If you then move up in stakes, when the inevitable downswing comes, you can then at least say to yourself I can always move back down if I need to. If you jump in at 10nl wins a bit and then slide into a loss, you don't know whether you have the game to win at any level.

I deposited $15 a couple of months ago. I first started playing on FullTilt at 2NL. In retrospect, I learned so much. However, I eventually lost most of my money. I had to learn to be tighter, making the correct plays. Bankroll management became really important when I started losing a lot. The micros is worth it. I'm multi-tabling, so over the course of a long period of time, you will have an upward trend in your bankroll. You just have to remember to study up and keep learning as much as possible.