KK v dirty board

Villian is loose passive. He plays any 2 cards (called my 4x raise pre with 92o and flopped two pair against my JJ). Am I getting the right price on the river?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($2.13)
CO ($4.44)
Hero (Button) ($2.92)
SB ($1.69)
BB ($1)
UTG ($5.28)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
UTG calls $0.02, 2 folds, Hero bets $0.10, 2 folds, UTG calls $0.08

Flop: ($0.23) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.12, UTG calls $0.12

Turn: ($0.47) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG checks, Hero bets $0.30, UTG calls $0.30

River: ($1.07) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG bets $0.50, Hero calls $0.50

Total pot: $2.07 | Rake: $0.10

you're never good on the river
the only thing you beat is three pair so decide if he's retarded enough to bet three pair

If you soft play them then you have the decision that you have.
You have no idea where you stand on the river, IMO.

On the Flop I would have bet to take it down right there.
Either way at that point you would know where you stand in relation to his hand.

In your current position on the River:
If your read is accurate (loose with ATC) and your on the river.
Trust your read and Push All in.
or
Half trust your read and Call.
or
Don't trust your read and Fold.

I would not get myself in this position and I would suggest playing more aggressive Early on.
Then you have a better chance of knowing where you stand and can take full advantage of the situation.


Good Luck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roller

If you soft play them then you have the decision that you have.
You have no idea where you you stand on the river, IMO.

On the Flop I would have bet to take it down right there.
Either way at that point you would know where you stand in relation to his hand.

In your current position on the River:
If your read is accurate (loose with ATC) and your on the river.
Trust your read and Push All in.
or
Half trust your read and Call.
or
Don't trust your read and Fold.

I would not get myself in this position and I would suggest playing more aggressive Early on.
Then you have a better chance of knowing where you stand and can take full advantage of the situation.


Good Luck.

---

Think again Roller.

You have a pretty clear idea where you at: (Lacking a read on his river donk leads being retarded bluffs/blocks) You´re beat >90%, ez fold. Just because you´re staring at two K´s like a deer in your headlights it´s not like folding top pair here is anywhere near a "tough fold", and Im sure KK = 97 on this river.

Regarding the flop we do not want to take it down right there, as we have the best hand a lot and more importantly can expect this player to put in more money with a range weaker than our hand. We´re not betting to take it down (b/c we´re scared to have the beautiful KK sucked out on), our intention is to maximize our value. In this case it´s getting the most money we can from a weaker range and vs this described villain we can go for two streets of value on most turn cards.

I agree on betting harder on flop due to the board being so wet (and o/c the opponent being stationy) BUT PLEASE DONT MAKE BETTING DECISIONS "TO SEE WHERE YOU´RE AT"! You´re accomplishing nothing and oftentimes a bet "for info" opposes the correct path of actions. Not in this case, but please please please erase the idea of betting or raising for info from your mind, practice hand reading instead and study the concept of bluffing and valuebetting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

you're never good on the river
the only thing you beat is three pair so decide if he's retarded enough to bet three pair

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I guess I am retarded enough by thinking that the villian might have 3-pair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roller

If you soft play them then you have the decision that you have.

---

I wanted to slow play by not betting 2/3 the pot on the flop because I wanted to seem like I have air; I didn't want to scare him on the flop. I think turn bet is fine too.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Extremophile

I didn't want to scare him on the flop. I think turn bet is fine too.

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Very pollite, hardly profitable

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XTR1000

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Extremophile

I didn't want to scare him on the flop. I think turn bet is fine too.

---

Very pollite, hardly profitable

---

OK, the villian might have both flush and straight draw. I could have bet more on the turn.

What happened on showdown?There was OESD and flush draw on the board.

Ok a couple people have said that the flop bet was a good size because you want to bet small enough for the villain to call. Well tha'ts true but i think maybe some people are under estimating just how bad 2nl players are. The flop is an easy pot sized bet. Villain will call with any 7 5 or 6. He will also call with any str8 draw. One thing to remember about 2nl is our bet sizing doesn't really affect our villains calling frequency. I mean i guess a huge over bet might spook them but for the most part they are calling a pot or 3/4 pot bet just as often as they are calling a 1/2 pot bet. Anyway if it was my hand my bet sizes would of been as follows.

pf .10
flop pot .22

flop bet .22

turn pot .66
turn bet around .50

The river is an easy fold. Sure even the most passive player will sometimes get a hair up his or her ass and want to pull of a bluff. So yes their is a chance that you are good here. Having said that over the long haul a river call is very -ev.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Extremophile

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

you're never good on the river
the only thing you beat is three pair so decide if he's retarded enough to bet three pair

---

I guess I am retarded enough by thinking that the villian might have 3-pair.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roller

If you soft play them then you have the decision that you have.

---

I wanted to slow play by not betting 2/3 the pot on the flop because I wanted to seem like I have air; I didn't want to scare him on the flop. I think turn bet is fine too.

---

note he can't have 76, he has to have exactly 74 to have three pair and to also play it this way
and also that's a retarded way to play the flop because about every single hand he calls with has a pair + gutshot or oesd and he has implied odds to call because you're paying him off on the river anyway when he hits

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XTR1000

Think again Roller.

You have a pretty clear idea where you at: (Lacking a read on his river donk leads being retarded bluffs/blocks) You´re beat >90%, ez fold. Just because you´re staring at two K´s like a deer in your headlights it´s not like folding top pair here is anywhere near a "tough fold", and Im sure KK = 97 on this river.

Regarding the flop we do not want to take it down right there, as we have the best hand a lot and more importantly can expect this player to put in more money with a range weaker than our hand. We´re not betting to take it down (b/c we´re scared to have the beautiful KK sucked out on), our intention is to maximize our value. In this case it´s getting the most money we can from a weaker range and vs this described villain we can go for two streets of value on most turn cards.

I agree on betting harder on flop due to the board being so wet (and o/c the opponent being stationy) BUT PLEASE DONT MAKE BETTING DECISIONS "TO SEE WHERE YOU´RE AT"! You´re accomplishing nothing and oftentimes a bet "for info" opposes the correct path of actions. Not in this case, but please please please erase the idea of betting or raising for info from your mind, practice hand reading instead and study the concept of bluffing and valuebetting.

---

XTR1000

Politeness and respect of other players and their opinions is very crucial to a Fantastic Forum like FTR.

It's great to have opinion.
I stated mine and said (IMO) In My Opinion.
You stated yours.

But to suggests a method or a certain style of play that works for you is the all mighty and all others are incorrect is both incorrect and disrespectful to others as well as the game of Holdem.

Respect First.
Please.

IMO:
Trust your reads.
If you can't trust them and allow them to overshadow the mathematics at times, you will come across players that will eat you alive at the tables.

Hand Reading includes:
Gather information in any means possible.
ANY MEANS POSSIBLE. (obviously within logical reasoning)
There is nothing wrong with utilizing:
Action > Reaction
Reaction > Action

They are all part of the game.
Pleas DO NOT EXCLUDE methods.
Keep your mind open to ideas old and new.
Be Creative.
Total Package

Just my opinion.

I neither force my opinion on others or expect them to follow it.
Just my thoughts.


Peace Out ...............

action > reaction, reaction > action is great, and it does tell you a good deal about your opponents hand. It does this by making them play in a very well defined way.

The problem, is theyre reaction is rarely the reaction that will be the most profitable.

For an extreme example, say we raise pre and get a caller. We open shove the flop. We just manipulated villains range into folding air and weak hands, and calling with his stronger hands. When he folds, we know what he had, and when he calls we know what he had...but obviously we could have won more money by maximizing from those hands that folded.

For a less extreme example, this hand works pretty well.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roller

But to suggests a method or a certain style of play that works for you is the all mighty and all others are incorrect is both incorrect and disrespectful to others as well as the game of Holdem.
.

---

are you stoopid?

Roller:

I apologies if my responce came across as unrespectful.

I disagreed with your opinion, because it´s lacking the logic and method to analyze a hand the correct way. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a cosmic read or a process of soul reading involved in the game of poker (and its not very helpful to suggest "trust your read"). The only "reads" you can ever have, are adressing your opponents betting paterns and ranges associated with those.

I see a lot of people going for the ultimate read and the ultimate soulpwnage. When you take the game seriously, you will sooner or later realize, that the incredible (thin and low proablitiy) reads we develop on certain opponents in certain situation are in most cases nothing but a stretch of good variance in our favour.

When you say "Id rather play the flop hard, to end the hand there" you clearly do not understand what this game is about. Playing a hand hard "to end it right there" is usually referred to as "bluffing", ie maximizing your equity by capitalizing on opponents tendencies to make incorrect folds. When our opponent does not fulfill this criterion (as the villian in OP) we are better off, betting better hands for value as long as we can expect a weaker hand (with less equity than ours) to put more money in, b/c on average these bets will make us money. We dont care, if he could draw out on us as long as we are making him pay a price too expensive to justify his call.

Now take the board of 765r and a villian who´s taking a flop with a lot of holdings. Im actually too lazy to make up ranges, lets just say for the sake of it that theres quiet a bunch of possible holdings weaker than our hand. Size your bet to maximize your value (and deny pot odds for 78ish hands).

To make a long rambling short: The advice to "take it down right there" is off. "Trust your read and shove AI" is simply wrong (particularly since OP didnt provide any read on villians river action, but was rather asking the fold or call question).

kind of hard to deny odds to 78 when he's 46% to win the hand on the flop
the best you can do is bet when you're ahead and fold when he gets there (a 4 or 8)

Roller - the way you lay out your posts tilts the shit out of me.

Flop bet is really bad as is your logic for it. You have no idea if this particular opponent assumes a small bet means weakness, but that isn't just why it's bad. All you're doing is losing value and gving the draws in his range a decent price to call.

Pot flop, pot turn. Board is so wet that you need to bet more to charge draws. You should always make your flop and turn bet sizes according to board textures. The more draw-heavy it is, the more you bet. The dryer the flop, the less you bet. This also eliminates bet sizing tells that you may have. This is, of course, unless you're against a station where you can, pot flop/turn/river profitably.

You're almost never good on the river though. =/

lol iopq. But 3pair is teh nutz!

I do not mean to insult the op because a a fellow penny player i also make mistakes. Hopefully i have not misunderstood him but he sounds to me like he made small bets because he was afraid of the other dude folding. Or perhaps he wanted to look weak and induce a re-raise. A smart strat but a misplaced 1 at 2nl. I played a hand last night that to me exemplifies why we need not fear scaring the villain away at these stakes. I'll post it in a sec not as a brag though as the sob rivered me.

Absolute Poker (Cash Game): $0.01/$0.02 NL, 7 players
Mon, Sep 21, 2009 04:28:29 EDT
Powered by Poker Academy (Format: 2+2 Forums)

B1 ($3.53)
BN ($2.44)
SB ($12.15)
BB ($1.97)
B4 ($2.09)
B3 ($0.80)
Hero ($1.19)

BN is the button.

Precards:
SB posts the small blind $0.01, BB posts the big blind $0.02.

Preflop: Hero is dealt Q:heart: K:club: (7 active)
B4 calls $0.02, B3 folds, Hero raises to $0.10, B1 folds, BN calls $0.10, 3 folds.

Flop: Q:club: 4:diamond: 2:heart: ($0.25, 2 active)
Hero bets $0.25, BN calls $0.25.

Turn: Q:club: 4:diamond: 2:heart: T:heart: ($0.75, 2 active)
Hero bets $0.75, BN calls $0.75.

River: Q:club: 4:diamond: 2:heart: T:heart: 3:heart: ($2.25, 2 active)
Hero bets $0.09 (all-in), BN calls $0.09.

Final Pot: $2.31, $0.12 raked
Hero, net: -$1.19, Lost at showdown, has Q:heart: K:club: (a Pair of Queens)
BN, net: $1.12, Won at showdown, has K:heart: 4:heart: (a Flush, King High)
B4, net: -$0.02, Folded Preflop
BB, net: -$0.02, Folded Preflop
SB, net: -$0.01, Folded Preflop

What the hell goes on in this thread? I feel lost.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by daven

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Roller

But to suggests a method or a certain style of play that works for you is the all mighty and all others are incorrect is both incorrect and disrespectful to others as well as the game of Holdem.
.

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are you stoopid?

---

stoopid ?

Who me
Yup that must be it.
lmao

If this was a high stakes game (which of course has nothing to do with this thread). would you play it the same.

Pointless question.
Pointless thread at this point.


This sure makes my point of respect.
I'm not sure why the mods allow this to occur at times.
lol

And please don't tell me no one else has noticed the condescending disrespectful few that ruin it for the many.

Thanks for the positive input.
I respect you thoughts and opinions.

Peace Out ...........

Quote:

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Originally Posted by XTR1000

Roller:

I apologies if my responce came across as unrespectful.

I disagreed with your opinion, because it´s lacking the logic and method to analyze a hand the correct way. Unfortunately, there is no such thing as a cosmic read or a process of soul reading involved in the game of poker (and its not very helpful to suggest "trust your read"). The only "reads" you can ever have, are adressing your opponents betting paterns and ranges associated with those.

I see a lot of people going for the ultimate read and the ultimate soulpwnage. When you take the game seriously, you will sooner or later realize, that the incredible (thin and low proablitiy) reads we develop on certain opponents in certain situation are in most cases nothing but a stretch of good variance in our favour.

When you say "Id rather play the flop hard, to end the hand there" you clearly do not understand what this game is about. Playing a hand hard "to end it right there" is usually referred to as "bluffing", ie maximizing your equity by capitalizing on opponents tendencies to make incorrect folds. When our opponent does not fulfill this criterion (as the villian in OP) we are better off, betting better hands for value as long as we can expect a weaker hand (with less equity than ours) to put more money in, b/c on average these bets will make us money. We dont care, if he could draw out on us as long as we are making him pay a price too expensive to justify his call.

Now take the board of 765r and a villian who´s taking a flop with a lot of holdings. Im actually too lazy to make up ranges, lets just say for the sake of it that theres quiet a bunch of possible holdings weaker than our hand. Size your bet to maximize your value (and deny pot odds for 78ish hands).

To make a long rambling short: The advice to "take it down right there" is off. "Trust your read and shove AI" is simply wrong (particularly since OP didnt provide any read on villians river action, but was rather asking the fold or call question).

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I can understand and appreciate your thought process.
Now re-looking at the OP and understanding that this is a micro stakes cash game.
My bad.
Your explanation was very respectful and precisely stated.
You have a overwhelmingly valid point.

Well Done Sir.

Roller has the nicest feeling enter key in all the lands, pass it on.