10nl: confusing hand w/ KJ

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08-17-2009, 03:32 AM
flyingtriangle

10nl: confusing hand w/ KJ

I have a strong feeling that I played this hand badly, but I'm not really sure where precisely. I had only been at the table for 19 hands. Villain was 7/7 so far. No reads yet. I'm on the button with KJo. Two players limped in (both had been limping a lot, one was 32/16, the other 28/5, but again this is over a very small sample), so I decided I'd go ahead and raise. The BB and one of the limpers called. Here's how it played out:

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($8.99)
SB ($6.35)
Villain (BB) ($10.81)
UTG ($16.19)
UTG+1 ($1.70)
MP1 ($15.30)
MP2 ($9.84)
MP3 ($2.06)
CO ($8.02)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
UTG calls $0.10, 4 folds, CO calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.55, 1 fold, Villain calls $0.45, 1 fold, CO calls $0.45

Flop: ($1.80) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (3 players)
Villain checks, CO checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($1.80) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (3 players)
Villain bets $1.80, 1 fold, Hero calls $1.80

River: ($5.40) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Villain bets $8.46 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $5.40 | Rake: $0.36

I had planned to cbet the flop, but for some reason the fact that the BB called my pre-flop raise made me a little gun-shy, so when it was checked around to me on the flop, I just checked behind. A king came on the turn, and the BB bet out. At this point, I was having a really hard time putting him on a range. I was worried about KQ and KT, but I was also thinking maybe he's got something like JJ or AT and he was going for a check/raise on the flop, and since no one bet there, now he's betting any turn card. I decided to call, but now I'm thinking that maybe I should have either (1) raised or (2) gone ahead and folded. As played, I feel like there's no way I can call the bet on the river.

Any thoughts on what I could have done differently would be appreciated. Should I have bet the flop? Was the pre-flop raise completely retarded?
08-17-2009, 03:48 AM
OP

He had a set, good fold
08-17-2009, 04:27 AM
PhilMC

I am not sure about that set, because his river bet doesn't make sense. Your line is pretty weak and he might be just bluffing with air or have something like TPGK, two pairs, maybe Kx...
Generally, I wouldn't raise w/ KJo with two limpers... However, if I had done that, I would have definitely cbet the flop.
08-17-2009, 04:43 AM
Parasurama

Preflop is 100% standard and if you wouldn't do it you should start philmc.

Postflop looks good too but I think cbetting might be slightly better. I'm not really sure what people are limp/calling with these days at 10NL.

Edit: Also, this is a great hand to see how you can figure out villain's plan for the hand and thereby figure out his most likely range. He called preflop, checked the flop, potted the turn, and overshoved the river (both of which were high cards that didn't help his range). Think about the type of hand that fits this plan. A small pocket pair setmining pre, whiffing on a c/r after hitting a set on the flop and hurrying to get the money in on the turn and river fits perfectly. Another less likely possibility is QJ giving up on the flop, semi-bluffing into weakness on the turn, and shoving the nuts on the river.
08-17-2009, 04:46 AM
settecba

hand is completely standard and fine IMO. NF.
08-17-2009, 05:34 AM
PhilMC

ok, good to know... and your analysis actually makes a lot of sense
08-17-2009, 11:54 AM
surviva316

we're gonna need to double barrel a lot of turns to make a cbet profitable here because, imo, we're getting at least one call here like 80% of the time. so obv a J, Q and K, maybe a 9, and MAYBE an A. the problem with double barrelling an A turn is that a limp/call pre, c/c flop line is Ax so often especially with the fishy stats the villains represent. not to mention who knows if the fold FD's or even 99.

so a Q is really gonna be the only good bluff card we're gonna get in a multi-way pot against likely stations, so it's hard for me to think up a way that we're gonna make a cbet profitable here.
08-17-2009, 12:31 PM
sportbike33

IMO... U acted strong preflop, I think since I have a such a weak hand KJ, that I might of only pushed it to like .35 - .45; but thats beside the point. Since you acted so strong on the button when the flop came out rags u should of def bet, especially becasue they all checked around to u. Worst case scenario you get check raised to which you make a simple lay down.
When the King came on the turn this is a scare card in my opinion since the Villain came right out betting, He could easily have something like K 10, 33, 44. He prob doesnt have anything stronger than that because he more than likely would of raised preflop with KK, QQ, AK, ect... If you would of raised post flop then you would of at least known where you are in the hand. Also you would still have control. Once you call the turn you are giving away all advantage that you have in the hand. If anything you could of raised the turn but I think since you Fucked the hand up that bad...jk... that you chalk it up as a learning experience and dont make the same mistake next time.
Just a thought but I think when the King hit he prob had u beat, and that was def a good laydown on the river. So altogether u lost $2.35 which you prob would lost no matter what that hand when you decided to play the KJ in the first place.
08-17-2009, 02:36 PM
Carroters

Quote:

Originally Posted by sportbike33

IMO... U acted strong preflop, I think since I have a such a weak hand KJ, that I might of only pushed it to like .35 - .45; but thats beside the point. Since you acted so strong on the button when the flop came out rags u should of def bet, especially becasue they all checked around to u. Worst case scenario you get check raised to which you make a simple lay down.
When the King came on the turn this is a scare card in my opinion since the Villain came right out betting, He could easily have something like K 10, 33, 44. He prob doesnt have anything stronger than that because he more than likely would of raised preflop with KK, QQ, AK, ect... If you would of raised post flop then you would of at least known where you are in the hand. Also you would still have control. Once you call the turn you are giving away all advantage that you have in the hand. If anything you could of raised the turn but I think since you Fucked the hand up that bad...jk... that you chalk it up as a learning experience and dont make the same mistake next time.
Just a thought but I think when the King hit he prob had u beat, and that was def a good laydown on the river. So altogether u lost $2.35 which you prob would lost no matter what that hand when you decided to play the KJ in the first place.

You're analysis is pretty terrible sir. Please refrain from enforcing it with such confident wisdom until you learn how to actually play the game.

Quote:

If you would of raised post flop then you would of at least known where you are in the hand

If we raise the turn bet all we're doing is blowing out his bluffs and losing far more money to his value range which is usually ahead of us. There is no reason to raise. We get information by what he does on the river and constructing a range based on his play of the overall hand. We do not need to make a bad play and spew money because we are confused as to what villain has.

Quote:

think since I have a such a weak hand KJ, that I might of only pushed it to like .35 - .45; but thats beside the point

The whole point of an isolation raise like this is to hopefully win the pot right there or get it HU with just one of these players (increasing our chance of winning the pot on the flop) if we rasie to .35 they will both indefinitely call and we will be multiway with a marginal hand. this of course isn't a disaster, but is less desirebale than the other 2 possible outcomes preflop. Raise size is absolutely fine with 2 limpers imo.

Quote:

Since you acted so strong on the button when the flop came out rags u should of def bet, especially becasue they all checked around to u.

No. This is a terribly shallow reason to bet. Yes to these limpers who may not understand we'll isolate with a somewhat widish range vs their weak limping ranges, we may appear strong. This however, does not mean that we will have a good amount of success with a c bet here. The chances are they did not call their middling suited connector or smal/medium pair to fold this sort of flop. fwiw Q 6 3 or something is a far better board to c bet multiway. So like surviva says we probably wont take it down on this flop often enough to make a c bet good here. So...we will have to fire multiple barrells which again is bad as there aren't many good turns to barrell against likely stations who dislike folding.

Quote:

Once you call the turn you are giving away all advantage that you have in the hand

No. Our advantage in the hand is that we are calling profitably on the turn because we are ahead of his betting range. Raising to gain the "advantage" doesn't do us much good against a set and doesn't encourage him to put anything more in with his bluffs. Poker isn't always a game of whoever bet first wins. You make it sound like we have 23o here. We have showdown value, but very little value vs his continuing to a raise range, the initiative or advantage as you call it means fuck all in this case.

Quote:

that you chalk it up as a learning experience and dont make the same mistake next time.

It's good to post your thoughts, I've learned loads by posting in others' threads and being totally wrong. BUT try not to believe so strongly that you are correct and offer more of an opinion than a lecture of nonsense. Btw the fact you put IMO at the start of the enrtire post does not negate the tone of the text imo.

Quote:

Also you would still have control.

One final point. Actually the minute we raise post flop, thats when we lose control because he gets to fold all his air and own us with his strong hands. By calling we keep control as we allow him to make a mistake by bluffing rivers. Also we keep control in the sense that we can decide to value bet the river when he checks thus gaining more value from a hand that would have folded to a strong looking turn raise.

I hope this helps and I don't mean to come across as patronising (even though I probably do) the first step to improving as a player is realising how terrible you are. Given your post sir, I believe you're yet to reach this stage.