TPTK, deep, crazy shove from fish. $50nl

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08-04-2009, 11:07 AM
WillburForce

TPTK, deep, crazy shove from fish. $50nl

This guy is a complete fish/numpty.He built his stack chasing flush draws, hitting miracles etc etc when there where 5 players. Just me and him HU now and we're both deep stacked. I've been raising all my BTNs and C-betting them all, to which he's folded everytime. I've also 4 bet his BTN a couple of times and he's insta folded.

Approx stack sizes:
Hero : $140
Villain: $200

I get :ac: :9c: on the BTN and raise to $1.50
Villain flats
FLOP: :9h: :6h: :4c:

Villain checks, I bet $2. Pot is now $5.......villain goes mad and shoves.....

I'm putting him squarely on a flush draw.

normally i'd snap call, but we're both so deep....
08-04-2009, 11:23 AM
minSim

fold
08-04-2009, 11:39 AM
WillburForce

even though I think I'm ahead and he's drawing?
08-04-2009, 11:44 AM
Jack Sawyer

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

normally i'd snap call, but we're both so deep....
08-04-2009, 12:17 PM
XTR1000

Re: TPTK, deep, crazy shove from fish. $50nl

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

I'm putting him squarely on a flush draw.

I doubt he´s going nuts with nothing but flush draws, esp when he is known to chase them down. That being said, just fold.
08-04-2009, 12:44 PM
WillburForce

these are spots i always get in trouble with.

I called. He had jh, 3h.

river was a heart.

so even though I know I'm ahead and he's drawing, we fold and wait for a better spot?
08-04-2009, 02:25 PM

well was he c/cing flush draws to the river or was he shoving and hitting?
if he's shoving any flush draw on the flop then snap call because he has a flush draw and he's probably bad enough to like minraise or slowplay a set on the same board
08-04-2009, 02:56 PM
Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

so even though I know I'm ahead and he's drawing, we fold and wait for a better spot?

Even though your read is that solid, all he needs is one card higher than a 9 to make this a coin flip. Do you really want to coin flip vs a fish deep when you can so much easier find a situation with more equity?
08-04-2009, 03:30 PM
minSim

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

so even though I know I'm ahead and he's drawing, we fold and wait for a better spot?

Even though your read is that solid, all he needs is one card higher than a 9 to make this a coin flip. Do you really want to coin flip vs a fish deep when you can so much easier find a situation with more equity?

this

the less money there is behind or the more money there's in the pot, the easier a call is.

This deep it's just a big gamble. I even wonder if we're ahead of villains range if he ever does this with combo draws, 2 pair, sets.
08-04-2009, 04:23 PM

we hope he has the NFD and we're 62%
we're still like 55% if he has one overcard or two overcards with one being the ace

the only time we should fold if we ever think he can do this with something other than a draw
08-04-2009, 04:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Galapogos

Quote:

Originally Posted by WillburForce

so even though I know I'm ahead and he's drawing, we fold and wait for a better spot?

Even though your read is that solid, all he needs is one card higher than a 9 to make this a coin flip. Do you really want to coin flip vs a fish deep when you can so much easier find a situation with more equity?

^^100% this and also we really don't want him to ship 600BB pot and just quit on us now do we?
08-04-2009, 04:57 PM
RugbyDonk

You`re destroying him without showdown so i dont think you need to gamble that much. Just fold and wait for a better spot
08-05-2009, 04:02 AM
WillburForce

hmmmmmmmmm. well fish f*cked off with my money straight after. And hasn't been on the tables since (at least when i've been playing).

i'm still unsure. I knew for sure I was ahead and he was drawing to the flush (answer to IOPQ, yes i'd seen push on flop with flush draws, and with straight draws, also seen him calling down all the way with low flush draws, and genrally just being a fish on luckbox mode).

But the question is, do I push my edge now, or just fold here, then wait for a proper made hand to stack him?

I find myself losing a lot of big pots where i'm ahead, but they have outs. And I always think that they're such fish, I should let go of weaker hands where I'm ahead and wait to show them the nuts.
08-05-2009, 04:05 AM
Da GOAT

if you put him SQUARELY on a flush draw then just do the math.
08-05-2009, 12:38 PM

Math of being very small favourite but having him leave a tonne as opposed to owning him in the near future? Option 2 imo
08-05-2009, 11:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Instant Aces

Math of being very small favourite but having him leave a tonne as opposed to owning him in the near future? Option 2 imo

you know our EV in the hand is like 17-40BB if we call the shove
I'll take the immediate profit because there is no guarantee that he'll stay for a long period of time

that said, there's also something that to be said for playing it safe since the chance of him having a hand other than a FD is non zero
08-06-2009, 03:07 AM
Sir Pawnalot

Its crucial to trust your instincts and I think your call was great- unless he also have like overpairs, 2p, sets in his range.

Good spots to stack fish doesnt come up that often and this is def one if your reads are correct.

Edit: I like how you first tilted him with aggressive BTN play and than called his inevitable tilt shove.