jj with king on the board 2nl

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07-29-2009, 04:04 PM
philly and the phanatics

jj with king on the board 2nl

villain was 34/10 over 35 hands, not much of a sample size so w/e
i only had one note on him and that was that he called a 4xbb raise from the button with 73s where he was the only other person in the pot.

i did the pokerstove and it says 51-call 49-fold but i guess i only have to call 1.19 to win 5.54. i am pretty much drawing dead though if he does have a king.

i put his range at 44-aa, a9s+,a10o+,k10s+,kjo+ and maybe qj and 10js...

so in hindsight i guess this is a bad fold ,not to mention a terrible semi bluff on the flop

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP2) ($3.17)
CO ($1.75)
Button ($1.97)
SB ($0.79)
BB ($3.59)
UTG ($3.73)
MP1 ($3.35)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
1 fold, MP1 bets $0.16, Hero calls $0.16, 4 folds

Flop: ($0.35) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
MP1 bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.50, MP1 raises to $3.19 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $3.35 | Rake: $0.15
07-29-2009, 04:22 PM
JKDS

how do you figure your opponent can have 66 here, as well as ATo and Ac9c and several of the other hands in that range?
07-29-2009, 04:31 PM
Ragnar4

You commited 1/2 your stack to a hand that you folded.

At this point I don't know if calling off, or folding is the bigger mistake. But I'm leaning towards Folding as being the bigger mistake
07-29-2009, 04:54 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by JKDS

how do you figure your opponent can have 66 here, as well as ATo and Ac9c and several of the other hands in that range?

i figure that if this guy is calling raises with 73s, then he is capable of raising with a pretty wide range. I meant that was his opening range, i guess i need to adjust that for pokerstove. i redid the range, giving him aa,kk,qq,jj,1010,k10+,and 55,44, 54s and its 19-call 81-fold....and i have 23% pot odds, so i guess a fold is right???

i know this was a horrible play, should i even call his flop bet or just fold it there?
07-30-2009, 04:49 PM
Cougar

Definitely tough decision on flop to call or fold (re-raise is bad).

PF raise is big (8xbb), any reads on that, is this standard size for this villain?

If it's normal size 34/10 is pretty loose and I would probably call flop and try to get to showdown as cheap as possible, folding to substantial turn bets and/or spades.

Folding on flop probably ok too...
07-30-2009, 05:18 PM
scfc_andy15

I play $2NL aswell :oops: and from experience after he lead the flop after you raised pre-flop for $0.50 I really doubt that he is going to fold so if you raise it's going to be all in. It looked like a weak king to me personally and it wanted it in to stop the flush draw. I might be talking crap but if you raised the flop you should of been prepared to put your stack in :D
07-30-2009, 07:42 PM
Stacks

(1) Villain raised preflop. So he is effectively cbetting, and not donk leading. It does make a difference, as people are more likely to cbet with a higher frequency, especially with air hands, than they are to donk lead.

(2) Your range is pretty skewed. Especially your first range where you expected him to bet/3bet with hands like 66-QQ, QJ, JT, etc. While it is possible he is going to play that reckless, and overall bad, without solid postflop reads I wouldn't dare make his range for 3betting the flop that wide.

(3) The second range of TT+, KT+, 55, 44, 54s is much better. However, what is this 19-call 81-fold you keep speaking of? Is that your equity in the pot? Meaning villain has an equity of 81%, and you have 19% equity if that is in fact his range? If that is the case, then since you need ~24% equity to make calling his flop 3bet shove profitable, then yes it's a fold.

(4) However, that doesn't mean that you played the hand right. There would be no way I would even consider raising this flop. Seems like a pretty clear call/fold spot. Why are you raising the flop? What do you believe your raise is accomplishing.

As far as my advice would go, I advocate just folding the flop here. Especially since it's an overbet, and if you are behind you are very unlikely to improve (2 outs). If it had been a standard sized cbet, say 2/3 pot ($0.23c or so), then I would say call the flop, and evaluate the turn. LIkely folding to a turn bet.
07-30-2009, 08:13 PM
bigspenda73

lolflop, awful
07-30-2009, 08:36 PM
philly and the phanatics

yea the flop raise was horrible, i apologize to all readers of this post for having to see this i am def plugging this leak as we speak
07-30-2009, 10:10 PM
bjsaust

Try to get into the habit of raising when you're not only ahead of their range, but ahead of their calling/reraising range. Anything else falls into either bluff or spew category.
07-30-2009, 10:56 PM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Try to get into the habit of raising when you're not only ahead of their range, but ahead of their calling/reraising range. Anything else falls into either bluff or spew category.

thanks BJ...also i never formally thanked you, i recently read your posts about beating micros and it, more than anything else i have read, is starting to change my game for the better, good looks on that.

edit: i just wanted to clarify that i meant. by "more than anything else i ahve read" i meant it is just a lot more simple and easier to apply to your game. I have read the supersystem, harrington on hold em, and ToP by Sklanksy, and while they are all great books that helped my game, this helped keep me focused and told me things that they do not really address in those books.
07-31-2009, 07:20 PM
littleogre

When you raised the flop you turned your hand into a bluff. The problem is at 2nl you are not likely to get rid of any hands that beat you.
08-01-2009, 01:04 AM
philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

When you raised the flop you turned your hand into a bluff. The problem is at 2nl you are not likely to get rid of any hands that beat you.

i feel that, so you recommend check/calling????
08-01-2009, 04:27 AM
Fielmann

Re: jj with king on the board 2nl

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

so in hindsight i guess this is a bad fold ,not to mention a terrible semi bluff on the flop

This wasn't a semi bluff. A semi bluff is done with a drawing hand. (Follow link to Poker Dictionary at the left side of the screen.)
08-01-2009, 05:47 PM
philly and the phanatics

Re: jj with king on the board 2nl

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fielmann

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

so in hindsight i guess this is a bad fold ,not to mention a terrible semi bluff on the flop

This wasn't a semi bluff. A semi bluff is done with a drawing hand. (Follow link to Poker Dictionary at the left side of the screen.)

This is directly from the FTR dictionary:

Betting with a hand that is probably not the best hand but may Turn into the best hand once the Turn or River cards are dealt.
Preflop or post River bets are never considered semi bluffs

A semi Bluff is designed to pick up the pot with the bet, but even if the bettor gets called he still have options to win the pot.

Semi Bluff bets are usually made with Flush draws or Straight draws

so, thanks for nit picking but it turns out that you are wrong, it is USUALLY a straight or flush draw, but it can be betting a hand that can improve if you pick up another card (aka a jack in this case)
08-01-2009, 06:53 PM
littleogre

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

When you raised the flop you turned your hand into a bluff. The problem is at 2nl you are not likely to get rid of any hands that beat you.

i feel that, so you recommend check/calling????

well depending on the opponents c-bett percentage and aggression level i'm not so sure i wouldn't just check fold the flop. Do you happen to know the villans c-bett percentage ?
08-01-2009, 06:58 PM
littleogre

Re: jj with king on the board 2nl

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fielmann

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

so in hindsight i guess this is a bad fold ,not to mention a terrible semi bluff on the flop

This wasn't a semi bluff. A semi bluff is done with a drawing hand. (Follow link to Poker Dictionary at the left side of the screen.)

This is directly from the FTR dictionary:

Betting with a hand that is probably not the best hand but may Turn into the best hand once the Turn or River cards are dealt.
Preflop or post River bets are never considered semi bluffs

A semi Bluff is designed to pick up the pot with the bet, but even if the bettor gets called he still have options to win the pot.

Semi Bluff bets are usually made with Flush draws or Straight draws

so, thanks for nit picking but it turns out that you are wrong, it is USUALLY a straight or flush draw, but it can be betting a hand that can improve if you pick up another card (aka a jack in this case)

Arguments over semantics are cool .
08-01-2009, 07:49 PM
Stacks

Re: jj with king on the board 2nl

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fielmann

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

so in hindsight i guess this is a bad fold ,not to mention a terrible semi bluff on the flop

This wasn't a semi bluff. A semi bluff is done with a drawing hand. (Follow link to Poker Dictionary at the left side of the screen.)

This is directly from the FTR dictionary:

Betting with a hand that is probably not the best hand but may Turn into the best hand once the Turn or River cards are dealt.
Preflop or post River bets are never considered semi bluffs

A semi Bluff is designed to pick up the pot with the bet, but even if the bettor gets called he still have options to win the pot.

Semi Bluff bets are usually made with Flush draws or Straight draws

so, thanks for nit picking but it turns out that you are wrong, it is USUALLY a straight or flush draw, but it can be betting a hand that can improve if you pick up another card (aka a jack in this case)

Arguments over semantics are cool .

And retarded. It is true that the majority of bluff's are technically semibluffs, because you rarely have 0% equity in the pot, which means you usually have a chance to improve to the best hand. However, a hand like JJ here has only about 8% equity if you are behind, which means you have a very little chance of improving when called by a better hand. So in that case, I wouldn't really classify it as a semi-bluff.
08-01-2009, 08:17 PM
philly and the phanatics

Re: jj with king on the board 2nl

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Quote:

Originally Posted by littleogre

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fielmann

Quote:

Originally Posted by philly and the phanatics

so in hindsight i guess this is a bad fold ,not to mention a terrible semi bluff on the flop

This wasn't a semi bluff. A semi bluff is done with a drawing hand. (Follow link to Poker Dictionary at the left side of the screen.)

This is directly from the FTR dictionary:

Betting with a hand that is probably not the best hand but may Turn into the best hand once the Turn or River cards are dealt.
Preflop or post River bets are never considered semi bluffs

A semi Bluff is designed to pick up the pot with the bet, but even if the bettor gets called he still have options to win the pot.

Semi Bluff bets are usually made with Flush draws or Straight draws

so, thanks for nit picking but it turns out that you are wrong, it is USUALLY a straight or flush draw, but it can be betting a hand that can improve if you pick up another card (aka a jack in this case)

Arguments over semantics are cool .

And retarded. It is true that the majority of bluff's are technically semibluffs, because you rarely have 0% equity in the pot, which means you usually have a chance to improve to the best hand. However, a hand like JJ here has only about 8% equity if you are behind, which means you have a very little chance of improving when called by a better hand. So in that case, I wouldn't really classify it as a semi-bluff.

ok its moot at this point, anyone have a picture of a dead horse that we could take a stick to?

but an answer for your question little ogre is that i had only been with the dude 35 hands, i thought you werent suppoesd to start relying on cbet percentage and what not until 300-500 hands
08-01-2009, 09:28 PM
Stacks

Flop is a pretty easy fold without reads. And even then, I would much rather have a hand that has more outs when behind.