JQ Beginner Hand

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07-23-2009, 03:56 PM
redih

JQ Beginner Hand

Full Tilt No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop | saw showdown

CO ($2.08)
Button ($10.95)
SB ($4)
Hero (BB) ($5.04)
UTG ($4.17)
MP ($4.05)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Button bets $0.07, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.05

Flop: ($0.15) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.30, Button raises to $0.70, Hero calls $0.40

Turn: ($1.55) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.55, Hero raises to $4.27 (All-In), Button calls $2.72

River: ($10.09) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players, 1 all-in)

Total pot: $10.09 | Rake: $0.67

I'm not really a beginner, I play mainly in B&M or 1 table HL 15/30 up. I thought this might be a good hand for beginners. Feel free to critique it. I was playing word of warcraft and a $4NL just for fun. Probably should have folded the thing on the flop with his re-raise but it's $4NL and I was raiding in WoW.
07-23-2009, 04:29 PM

What are your reads? Why are you min-raising the flop? Oh, and please don't show results.
07-23-2009, 05:20 PM
killerkebab

Re: JQ Beginner Hand

Quote:

Originally Posted by redih

Preflop: Hero is BB with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif
3 folds, Button bets $0.07, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.05

What the hell are we doing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by redih

Flop: ($0.15) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $0.15, Hero raises to $0.30, Button raises to $0.70, Hero calls $0.40

What the hell are we doing?

Quote:

Originally Posted by redih

Turn: ($1.55) 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, Button bets $1.55, Hero raises to $4.27 (All-In), Button calls $2.72

You'll be pleased to know this is just about the only thing in this hand that I agree with.

Don't show results.
07-23-2009, 05:22 PM
redih

Results removed. No reads, only played about 10 hands with him.

I'll read others critiques before I post my thoughts (Most of them are negative, that's why I made this post). This is a common problem I see with new players.
07-23-2009, 05:35 PM
bigspenda73

killer pf is absolutely fine
07-23-2009, 05:50 PM
bjsaust

I would fold QJo PF but calling isnt terrible.

Flop I probably wouldnt raise. Semibluff can be good, but this hits his range fairly hard so a raise has less FE than usual. If you do raise, make it 3x or so, you fold out nothing with a minraise.

Not a terrible hand or anything.
07-23-2009, 06:45 PM
killerkebab

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

killer pf is absolutely fine

He said it was 4NL so I assumed that meant he has ~100bb - 250bb deep it is probably good but I still don't like it much. A board like that one is pretty much the only board we're really happy to see.
07-23-2009, 06:57 PM
bigspenda73

surely you guys are fucking joking about folding QJ
07-23-2009, 07:26 PM
killerkebab

Is it truly the biggest mistake you could ever make at 2nl?
07-23-2009, 08:24 PM
Stacks

I think it's a bigger mistake folding QJo at 2nl here than it would be at 100nl-200nl. Villain's range is just so wide for raising the button, and your call closes the action. I'm definitely not folding QJo here unless (1) villain is a nit and isn't positionally aware meaning his range for opening is still tight or (2) I feel villain has an edge over me and will make my life hell playing pots OOP against him.

I would call most of the time, and sometimes 3bet. Calling QJs everytime from the BB.

As for the flop, I'm kinda torn on if I want to c/c or c/r. And it basically comes down to the fact we are 250bb deep, and I'm not very versed in playing deep.

C/calling is obv fine, and will be profitable because against a bad player we has loads of implied odds for when we hit. However, it is kinda hard to extract OOP without initiative, so I don't mind a c/r. That is unless villain is going to 3bet the majority of his range, which if he is going to and is going to do it to a good size (his size sucks), then I perfer c/c.

Pretty much the only mistake I really see is your flop raising size. When he 3bets that small you are getting enormous immediate odds to call, and good implied odds.
07-23-2009, 08:45 PM
bjsaust

I dunno, on one hand you guys are saying its good presumably because we expect opponent to be bad, but then we expect an unknown at 2nl to be good enough to have a wide button opening range. QJo is just going to give lots of people trouble OOP.
07-23-2009, 08:47 PM
bigspenda73

maybe if we just fold every hand that has a possibility of losing then we'll never lose!
07-23-2009, 08:51 PM
Stacks

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

but then we expect an unknown at 2nl to be good enough to have a wide button opening range.

He is going to have a wide button range. Not because he's good. But because a very common leak at 2nl is playing too many hands, so why would he differ any here?

There is a difference between doing something because it's right and knowing it, and doing something just because that's how you play. Some maniacs check/raise a lot. Just because they check/raise a board that smashes their perceived range doesn't mean they are competent and knew what they were doing. They were doing it because they do it all the time.
07-23-2009, 09:02 PM
Nobody~~

It's so marginal, who cares, it's not what the HH is about. Did we all read what OP wrote?
07-23-2009, 09:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nobody~~

It's so marginal, who cares, it's not what the HH is about. Did we all read what OP wrote?

well that's the only thing that will teach people something because flop is aweful and turn is totally standard
07-23-2009, 10:07 PM
Parasurama

yeah it's really the only point to discuss in this hand, also we can discuss how OP came off like a huge douche and failed to justify why this hand would help beginners (NOT HIM).
07-23-2009, 10:32 PM
housefish17

You guys are harsh.

I know I'm a nub, but the only thing I disagree with on this hand is that attrocious flop play. Sure the Semibluff is correct, but reraising the villians is...well bad. A call there would've been exactly correct at that point. The turn couldn't be improved on, and if you lost this hand, then so be it, you know you got it in with the best of it.
07-23-2009, 10:50 PM

Let's extend the blind play discussion, what equity preflop vs. villain's range do we want to call from the BB? Surely we're calling if we're 50% despite being OOP because we are getting good odds. But we probably shouldn't be playing hands with 30% equity even if we have the pot odds to call.
07-23-2009, 11:56 PM
bjsaust

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

maybe if we just fold every hand that has a possibility of losing then we'll never lose!

Learning to fold marginal hands OOP as a beginner is hardly a bad plan.
07-23-2009, 11:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

maybe if we just fold every hand that has a possibility of losing then we'll never lose!

Learning to fold marginal hands OOP as a beginner is hardly a bad plan.

I realized I fold this
then I realized I run really bad on the big blind
then I realized heads up I run really good on the big blind and defend JTo, A7o type of hands
so probably against bu's range QJo and A9o are not terrible to defend (since he's opening many worse aces anyway)
07-24-2009, 01:18 AM
bjsaust

I probably fold this and I run really good in the BB. The ability for an experienced player with a few months experience of HU play to play this spot, is different than a beginner.

Actually, I'd tend to 3bet QJo but calling is definitely the exception and I'd need a reason to do so.
07-24-2009, 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I probably fold this and I run really good in the BB. The ability for an experienced player with a few months experience of HU play to play this spot, is different than a beginner.

I would counter that with this is NL2 and villains are not going to play that well, and we're probably EV+ even OOP because they're so bad
07-24-2009, 03:14 AM
surviva316

Quote:

Originally Posted by Parasurama

yeah it's really the only point to discuss in this hand, also we can discuss how OP came off like a huge douche and failed to justify why this hand would help beginners (NOT HIM).

para's on spot tonight, i couldn't believe this point wasn't made by anyone else.

at 2NL, i'd fold here without reads because i fold this at 10NL without reads, and i just assume that 2NLers are like 10x's less likely to have heard of a blind steal.

stacks, your logic sounds ok, but if you're right, then we should always flat QJo OOP on an unknown at 2nl, which is a recipe for disaster as a beginner. bj's talkin' the most sense here imo.

anyway, even if i had a read on opponent that they steal blinds, and they're bad post flop, i'm prolly 3b'ing as opposed to calling, especially this deep. OOP, we've got a hand that's only winning small pots and losing big ones, unless we get oober lucky and flop an OESD and turn the nuts.
07-24-2009, 04:00 AM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by bjsaust

I probably fold this and I run really good in the BB. The ability for an experienced player with a few months experience of HU play to play this spot, is different than a beginner.

Actually, I'd tend to 3bet QJo but calling is definitely the exception and I'd need a reason to do so.

the only thing I like less than folding QJo is 3betting it here

also, say you're playing HU, button opens 3x and we have QJo, who is folding?
07-24-2009, 04:28 AM
bjsaust

I'd call QJo HU but I'm more confident of their ranges HU. I also wouldn't recommend beginners play HU often.

HU you pay a higher cost per hand and so you're forced to play a higher variance style to compensate. No need for introducing unnecessary variance at 2nl.
07-24-2009, 05:38 AM
Nobody~~

So, as a beginner, I should play Heads Up, and everything that I do there will translate directly to all my blinds play?
07-24-2009, 03:03 PM
bigspenda73

couldn't hurt, that's for sure