QQ and JJ in 3bet pots

I hate these spots where I have a good hand, but their line screams strength, but then its aggressive players who could bluff (I dont expect worse made hands in either case). I just seem to dig myself holes.

Hand 1

24/19 with 8% 3bet. I'm worried about my image here. Normally a 3bet of an UTG is fairly strong, but I've been folding to 3bets a lot and the times I've called I've called 1-2 streets and then folded a lot. Feels like I'm getting run over.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (5 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (UTG) ($203.75)
Button ($369.68)
BB ($200)
SB ($134.61)
MP ($207.90)

Preflop: Hero is UTG with Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
Hero bets $6, MP raises $18, 3 folds, Hero calls $12

Flop: ($39) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $28, Hero calls $28

Turn: ($95) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $60, Hero calls $60

River: ($215) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero checks, MP bets $101.90 (All-In), Hero calls $97.75 (All-In)

Total pot: $410.50


Hand 2

24/19 with 7% 3bet (7% squeeze). 72% cbet in both regular and 3bet pots.

No-Limit Hold'em, $2.00 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($202.45)
BB ($374.37)
CO ($219.13)
Button ($219.20)
SB ($244)
UTG ($227.15)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
1 fold, Hero bets $6, 1 fold, Button calls $6, SB raises $27, 1 fold, Hero calls $22, 1 fold

Flop: ($64) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $45, Hero calls $45

Turn: ($154) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $171 (All-In), Hero calls $129.45 (All-In)

At the time I thought he could have a drawing hand (like AhKh), but on review I think I'm more likely to have the drawing hand. Bleh, is PF just fold or raise?

Disclaimer: I may be spewy in these spots

if you want to be able to 4b bluff from UTG, then you should get it in pre in hand 1
if you think you're getting 3b bluffed, then a 4b bluff from UTG seems really strong since they expect you to have it just about every time

3b bluffing UTG is not that bad because they'll fold hands they usually call with



in hand 2 you could shove pre if you want
I'd shove flop

in general i find when people are 3betting UTG raises or they are squeezing against UTG or MP opens they seem to show up with really good hands very often.

first hand I think is probably not even worth thinking about all that much, I had a hand yesterday where i had QQ in BB and 3bet a UTG raise who 4bet and i got it in vs AA and after thought i did something wrong but what could I do? Flat QQ and play a small pot oop? 3bet and fold? its just running like dogshit basically... if you're going with the hand anyway you might as well get it in on the turn because I think JJ might check back the river but pay you off on the turn here. i dont think opp every has 88/99 though to 3bet MP vs UTG

a guy with 3bet 7% isn't super crazy, if he was 10% i could see more of an argument to get it in pre OR on this flop. i think on the turn you're really only ahead of Axhh since i dont think 88/99 type hands are in his range...

I think getting it in pre should be standard in a standard squeeze spot with JJ (which we should be prepared to felt pre in some situations)
There is no way for him to have a range that's super strong here AND be squeezing 7% in this spot

even if he magically gets it in with AK+,JJ+ (exactly the hands that have the pot odds to call a shove) he's losing 27BB on a bluff the other 4.4% of the time, so even if we're only called when we're a flip or crushed we STILL have 36% equity when called and we pick up a 27BB pot 62% of the time and lose 22BB when he calls so obviously we make profit even if he folds less than half of the time (but he folds 62%)

but I've seen people get it in here with TT (well obviously if they decide to squeeze they have to get it in, but I would usually just flat?)

Hand 1. Two things that prove to be strength from villain. 1. They 3bet an UTG raiser. 2. Their bet sizes are not looking for folds.

Hand 2. Meh this doesn't seem like an ideal squeeze spot being UTG+1 and him being OOP. I can't really tell you what to do. I'd probably fold preflop and be pissed but that's probably ridiculously too nitty.

it's 1/2 so the squeeze is 13.5bb
i'm not sure this is a "standard" spot though, i mean most people still have a tight range in MP, and a 7% 3bettor isn't monkey crazy either.
most standard spots are against LP openers and callers right?

Hand 1 get it in pre

Hand 2 is it really bad to call flop and fold turn?

1 - wot were your thoughts on calling pre?? postflop, meh cooler

2 - postflop, meh cooler. btw when u call flop its takes alot of draws OUT of your range.

1st one looks good.

2nd one definitely fold preflop, you opened UTG, BTN flat, and the SB is squeezing. He's not light there, ever.

In general, it might be the case that you flat too many 3bets then get into the habit of calling flop calling turn folding river. It's a really bad scenario to encourage your opponents to put you in, just a guess but you may need to widen your 4bet bluffing range in some spots.

3b calling/4betting is definately a weakness of mine. It tends to be hands like this TT-QQ where I'm rarely far ahead if we get it in pre, but my hand seems too good to fold v's any bar the tightest 3bet ranges. Then I get into a spot where I dont want to just fit or fold flop, but again not sure if a raise is really for value postflop.

Marshall, I guess you mean that if I 4-bet bluff more, then I can feel more comfortable getting hands like these in PF v's people I play regularly?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Da GOAT

1 - wot were your thoughts on calling pre?? postflop, meh cooler.

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I guess I think his range is super-polarized here. I cant imagine any 'light' or thin value 3bets in his range, so they crush me, AK or he has trash. If I 4-bet then I fold all his trash but at best flip if he shoves. Tbh, its mostly a spot where I dont know what to do so I end up calling.

1) very easy fold on river. you might could fold on turn vs some.
As for getting it in pre, I think that is pretty damn marginal to bad. I tend to flat my whole range here.

2) fold turn, maybe reraise pre (i dont' know if 7% squeeze is a lot).

Reraising pre is +ev for sure, but its probably fairly close since we're not 100% that he gets it in pre with TT. I don't mind calling. When he bets that flop you are in pretty bad shape to begin with, so I definitely can see a turn fold.

marshall, your recommendation is to FOLD JJ pre to the squeeze from SB in hand 2... what would you suggest we call with in this spot? or do you recommend either folding or 4betting in which case if we have been 4 bet bluffing sometimes then we can safely get it in here with JJ+/AK ?

I have a hand of my own as well.
opp: 20/16/2.6 and 3bet 5%
i'm not shipping this in pre because I dont think he stacks off JJ when I'm UTG (ie his range to stack off is QQ/KK/AA/AK)
so i opt to flat and see a flop, he has 71% cbet in 3bet pots, do you think on this flop this is a CLEAR fold to his CR?

$1/$2 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG Hero ($194.00)
UTG+1 The747 ($197.00)
CO DerMeisters ($153.53)
BTN dobbe11 ($197.00)
SB RebVodka ($209.25)
BB friga ($254.45)

Pre-flop: ($3, 6 players) Hero is UTG :qs: :qc:
Hero raises to $7, The747 calls $7, 2 folds, RebVodka raises to $30, 1 fold, Hero calls $23, The747 folds

Flop: :7h: :ts: :9d: ($69, 2 players)
RebVodka checks, Hero bets $26, RebVodka raises to $179.25

Final Pot: $274.25

nice hijack of thread

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Renton

2) fold turn, maybe reraise pre (i dont' know if 7% squeeze is a lot).

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In my experience most people either squeeze a lot more, or a lot less than they 3bet. The fact that his 3bet % and squeeze % were the same seemed like it could be significant. My assumption is that it means his squeezing range is identical to his 3bet range, so the fact its a squeeze instead of a normal 3bet doesnt really affect his range much. I could be wrong though.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bjsaust

Marshall, I guess you mean that if I 4-bet bluff more, then I can feel more comfortable getting hands like these in PF v's people I play regularly?

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You'll get a better feel when people are light in general while at the same time inducing people to make more mistakes allowing you to get your AA in against weaker hands than KK, which I assume is basically all that happens if you aren't 4betting enough.

It doesn't mean that this spot will become +ev to get in, more so that you'll realize it's not and know to fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by bspahn

marshall, your recommendation is to FOLD JJ pre to the squeeze from SB in hand 2... what would you suggest we call with in this spot? or do you recommend either folding or 4betting in which case if we have been 4 bet bluffing sometimes then we can safely get it in here with JJ+/AK ?

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If you're calling pre you're not calling to setmine because you don't have odds, so you must be calling to trap I guess, in which case ...it worked and you shouldn't fold. This is why I said go back over the post I made since you didn't understand it if you're asking this.

Part of my problem is that historically I've had no problem getting my big hands paid off getting all in preflop. Basically I've had the luxury of playing people who just have a stackoff range and aren't paying attention to mine. Now I'm only really starting to come up against people who could be thinking a bit and trying to work through adjusting my own game to compensate.