Advice on profitable flat calling.

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06-13-2009, 04:10 AM
revolvingiris

Advice on profitable flat calling.

This isnt the biggest concept in the world but IMO its a leak in my game. Here are two hands where it would have been better to flat than raise, which I did.

Villain is 44/0/.6 over 12 hands...I didnt know much about playing style as I saw really nothing but limp folding (I should have been paying more attention).

The reason I think I should have checked the turn is the same reason why I checked the flop:
A) Pot control
B) The only folds I get are things Im crushing (so I loose value)
C) If I am c/r I have now bloated the pot for villain to bet when I check on the river (exploitable)

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (7 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

CO ($4.55)
Hero (Button) ($10.25)
SB ($9.90)
BB ($2)
UTG ($3.60)
MP1 ($6.90)
MP2 ($9.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
3 folds, CO calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.50, 2 folds, CO calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
CO checks, Hero bets $0.60, CO calls $0.60

Turn: ($2.35) 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
CO bets $0.40, Hero raises to $1.40, CO raises to $3.45 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $5.15 | Rake: $0.25

Results in white below:
CO didn't show
Outcome: CO won $4.90

I actually made the same mistake twice but didnt notice it until I looked at my session in PT. This time however I really see the benefit to just calling behind:

A) AQ is in his pf calling range
B) Im in better position if I raise and get CC, but dont think I could get a ton of value from QJ
C) As played, he bets and say I CC, villain fires river and I just CC for a cheaper price than I paid raising as the hands that beat me want to keep me in for value.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

BB ($10)
UTG ($1.30)
UTG+1 ($17.25)
MP1 ($13.85)
MP2 ($2)
CO ($1.85)
Hero (Button) ($14.55)
SB ($4.20)

Preflop: Hero is Button with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
5 folds, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, BB calls $0.30

Flop: ($0.85) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.85) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets $0.50, Hero raises to $1.50, BB raises to $2.50, Hero calls $1

River: ($5.85) 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
BB bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

Total pot: $8.85 | Rake: $0.40

Results in white below:
Hero mucked Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (one pair, Queens).
BB had 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (three of a kind, twos).
Outcome: BB won $8.45

With this hand I obv made the correct read but also think I lost value.
A) His flop check raise didnt make sense as he would have raised pf. I didnt think he had a set because he has position on me and can just call till the river and fire after my bet (I was decently aggressive).
B) On the turn he bet less than he did on the flop (not always a tell). But that 2d didnt help him and if hes not ahead on the flop he isnt a head now.
C) I wasnt ever worried about two pair because I have only showed stronger hands and he would need something better than K7 to compete.
D) He could have had AA but more than likely he would have popped me pf.
E) I called the river bet because the only thing I could see him beating me with is AA and I didnt see this holding in his line.

Final thoughts: I could have c/r the river but IDK how much value Im losing by just flatting.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

UTG+1 ($10.20)
MP1 ($2)
Hero (MP2) ($12.40)
MP3 ($18.55)
CO ($1.80)
Button ($9)
SB ($10.05)
BB ($36.90)
UTG ($1.70)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, UTG+1 calls $0.10, 1 fold, Hero bets $0.50, 5 folds, UTG+1 calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.15) 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 checks, Hero bets $0.80, UTG+1 raises to $1.60, Hero calls $0.80

Turn: ($4.35) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $1.50, Hero calls $1.50

River: ($7.35) 2http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
UTG+1 bets $2.10, Hero calls $2.10

Total pot: $11.55 | Rake: $0.55

Results in white below:
UTG+1 had Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (one pair, twos).
Hero had Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (two pair, Kings and twos).
Outcome: Hero won $11
06-13-2009, 02:28 PM

1. you didn't check flop and you couldn't check turn, wrong hand?
anyway you played this terribly, just call his donk and hope he leads .4 again on the river which you'll call
2. flat the turn, flat the river
3. he could have a set... how can he c/r you and have position on you?
but yeah I'm just going to call his bets
do you think if you raise him here you'll get more value? no, he's just going to fold
06-13-2009, 03:18 PM
revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

1. you didn't check flop and you couldn't check turn, wrong hand?
anyway you played this terribly, just call his donk and hope he leads .4 again on the river which you'll call
2. flat the turn, flat the river
3. he could have a set... how can he c/r you and have position on you?
but yeah I'm just going to call his bets
do you think if you raise him here you'll get more value? no, he's just going to fold

1: I ment to say "I should have checked the turn and I should have checked the flop".

I put hands 1 and 2 up to show how I played something incorrectly and where I think I should have gone into check call mode. I posted the 3rd hand because I think it best illustrated going into c/c mode (just for contrast).

3: Yeah, I was pretty tired when I posted this. He didn't have position on me lol...He could have a set here although I don't see 44 showing up on his limp/ call range all too often utg+1. So, really that leaves him with AA, 77, or air. I just dont see how anything other than those would have made sense.
06-13-2009, 03:30 PM
Stacks

Hand 1: Check flop. You don't get value from worse all that often. If he bets small on turn, probably call and evaluate river.

Hand 2: Flop is likely player dependent. If villain is aggressive and check/raising often, I don't mind checking it back. If he is likely c/f his whiffed overs, and c/c his smallish overpairs, and only c/r his draws/sets, then i likely cbet. Not only do we get some better hands to fold here (Ax), we have decent equity when called (against his weak overpairs), and we can also barrel him off those weak hands on appropriate turns/rivers.

As played raising turn is pretty much spew. It's pretty obvious what you have, and I doubt worse calls the raise too often.

Hand 3: It's played well; however, it's also villain dependent. Folding the flop wouldn't be terrible, as his limp/calling, check/raising range is going to be sets sooo often.
06-13-2009, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

1. you didn't check flop and you couldn't check turn, wrong hand?
anyway you played this terribly, just call his donk and hope he leads .4 again on the river which you'll call
2. flat the turn, flat the river
3. he could have a set... how can he c/r you and have position on you?
but yeah I'm just going to call his bets
do you think if you raise him here you'll get more value? no, he's just going to fold

1: I ment to say "I should have checked the turn and I should have checked the flop".

I put hands 1 and 2 up to show how I played something incorrectly and where I think I should have gone into check call mode. I posted the 3rd hand because I think it best illustrated going into c/c mode (just for contrast).

3: Yeah, I was pretty tired when I posted this. He didn't have position on me lol...He could have a set here although I don't see 44 showing up on his limp/ call range all too often utg+1. So, really that leaves him with AA, 77, or air. I just dont see how anything other than those would have made sense.

I can see him limp/calling 44 all day here
06-13-2009, 05:55 PM
revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by iopq

1. you didn't check flop and you couldn't check turn, wrong hand?
anyway you played this terribly, just call his donk and hope he leads .4 again on the river which you'll call
2. flat the turn, flat the river
3. he could have a set... how can he c/r you and have position on you?
but yeah I'm just going to call his bets
do you think if you raise him here you'll get more value? no, he's just going to fold

1: I ment to say "I should have checked the turn and I should have checked the flop".

I put hands 1 and 2 up to show how I played something incorrectly and where I think I should have gone into check call mode. I posted the 3rd hand because I think it best illustrated going into c/c mode (just for contrast).

3: Yeah, I was pretty tired when I posted this. He didn't have position on me lol...He could have a set here although I don't see 44 showing up on his limp/ call range all too often utg+1. So, really that leaves him with AA, 77, or air. I just dont see how anything other than those would have made sense.

I can see him limp/calling 44 all day here

Then this would have been the only time he had ever limped called a pocket pair in my entire session with him....Generally speaking, players will have a set here although my read was that he specifically didnt...
06-13-2009, 05:57 PM
Stacks

If you are putting 77 in his limp/caling, check/raising range, it only makes sense to put 44 in there also. Isn't he more likely open 77 preflop than 44?
06-13-2009, 06:09 PM
revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Hand 3: It's played well; however, it's also villain dependent. Folding the flop wouldn't be terrible, as his limp/calling, check/raising range is going to be sets sooo often.

Is there any math behind when to CC and when to fold? I noticed that this kind of seems like a polar opposite to when to 3bet/4bet and there are tons of topics on that.
06-13-2009, 06:23 PM
Stacks

Well you call when you hand has > equity against villains range than the pot odds you are being offered. If you have 40% equity and are getting 2:1 pot odds, it's profitable to call. Even if you don't have the needed equity preflop it likely isn't going to be a mistake to call an open with a hand that has less equity against his opening range because of implied odds, and positional advantage.