25nl Top 2 ??

Printable View

06-10-2009, 05:10 PM
dejection08

25nl Top 2 ??

I just sat down at this table. I have no current read on the villian.

Should I have made the call?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.25 BB (8 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP1 ($5.90)
MP2 ($6)
Hero (CO) ($25)
Button ($37.95)
SB ($39.65)
BB ($4.65)
UTG ($14.75)
UTG+1 ($8.85)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
4 folds, Hero bets $0.80, 1 fold, SB calls $0.70, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.85) Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 9http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB checks, Hero bets $1.30, SB calls $1.30

Turn: ($4.45) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
SB bets $37.55 (All-In), Hero folds

Total pot: $4.45 | Rake: $0.20
06-10-2009, 05:39 PM
Fnord

It's probably the nuts but sometimes it isn't. Fold without a read.
06-10-2009, 09:57 PM
poker_pup

Absent any reads, I fold. Might be a bluff or he might be overbetting TPTK to protect against a flush draw, but why take the risk?
06-10-2009, 10:49 PM
Stacks

Pretty easy fold without reads.. You need to be good here like 46% of the time to have a Breakeven call. Without reads on whether he would spaz and do this with a turned flush/straight draw, Ax, etc, you have to fold.
06-11-2009, 12:35 AM
bigspenda73

wtf snap call
06-11-2009, 01:41 AM
OP

Isn't the standard fish line for a 7 c/minraise here?

I call (but don't advocate it)
1. because we beat every A except A7
2. because I am a donkey
06-11-2009, 06:33 AM
Luco

This screams 'I want you to folllldddddd'.
06-11-2009, 06:03 PM
spoonitnow

No this screams I went all-in now figure out a range you could be against and your pot odds and do some actual goddamn analysis instead of oh shit guys which button do i push here
06-11-2009, 06:33 PM
surviva316

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

No this screams I went all-in now figure out a range you could be against and your pot odds and do some actual goddamn analysis instead of oh shit guys which button do i push here

i agree, except i DO think that the psychology is really important here 'cause wtf range do we put an opponent on who donks four times the pot after a PFR and a cbet? i personally haven't seen it happen enough much less have shown down enough hands in this scenario to talk about whether or not A2 is in his range or not.

if your argument is that this is a panic bet or an overbluff just as often as it's omg i've never seen a FH before!!!! bet, then your point is well taken and let's look at ranges for this idiot. and if that's the case then there are 80 Ax hands that we beat and it's tough to think of him having more than 15 different combos of 7 that make it this far plus AA and 99. unfortunately i don't have pokerstove, but i can't imagine that the small amount of equity that the AT+ hands have against us make up for this.

is that better spoonitnow?
06-11-2009, 10:04 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

Quote:

Originally Posted by spoonitnow

No this screams I went all-in now figure out a range you could be against and your pot odds and do some actual goddamn analysis instead of oh shit guys which button do i push here

i agree, except i DO think that the psychology is really important here 'cause wtf range do we put an opponent on who donks four times the pot after a PFR and a cbet? i personally haven't seen it happen enough much less have shown down enough hands in this scenario to talk about whether or not A2 is in his range or not.

if your argument is that this is a panic bet or an overbluff just as often as it's omg i've never seen a FH before!!!! bet, then your point is well taken and let's look at ranges for this idiot. and if that's the case then there are 80 Ax hands that we beat and it's tough to think of him having more than 15 different combos of 7 that make it this far plus AA and 99. unfortunately i don't have pokerstove, but i can't imagine that the small amount of equity that the AT+ hands have against us make up for this.

is that better spoonitnow?

No my point was do some actual goddamn analysis instead of oh shit guys which button do i push here. Saying the words 'combos', 'equity' and 'range' with some random numbers thrown in doesn't constitute analysis but you could be getting closer. I mean, you're basically asking if you can call here, so just figure out his range, what your equity is against it, and decide if it's a +EV call or not. It's not that goddamn hard and it only takes a minute or two. Then you can start improving on your accuracy of what you think his range is.
06-11-2009, 10:29 PM
Sir Pawnalot

Spoon- your comment is retarded in two ways:

1. You spread hatred which is slowing the progress of the Universe at large.

2. "I just sat down at this table. I have no current read on the villian."

Without any reads you must base your decision on your average Equity against all players at this level minus the "good players" which never does this overbetting.

Thus we must estimate our E versus the average overbet amongst "bad players"

This can only be done somewhat accurately with good experience. Since I completed this level so fast I cannot make that estimation with good accuracy- but I would be dumbfounded if OP is not at a marked Equity disadvantage.

This is often a great call versus somewhat tilted players, but we dont know that.

2c and I called a genius retarded!! What a day.
06-11-2009, 10:40 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Spoon- your comment is retarded in two ways:

1. You spread hatred which is slowing the progress of the Universe at large.

2. "I just sat down at this table. I have no current read on the villian."

Without any reads you must base your decision on your average Equity against all players at this level minus the "good players" which never does this overbetting.

Thus we must estimate our E versus the average overbet amongst "bad players"

This can only be done somewhat accurately with good experience. Since I completed this level so fast I cannot make that estimation with good accuracy- but I would be dumbfounded if OP is not at a marked Equity disadvantage.

This is often a great call versus somewhat tilted players, but we dont know that.

2c and I called a genius retarded!! What a day.

To #1, yes I'm an ass hole and whoever doesn't like it can suck my fucking cock.

To #2, you're agreeing with me here without realizing it. Instead of the thought process being "I have no reads" -> "What button do I push" it should be "I have no reads" -> "I need to estimate a range" -> "What is my equity against that range" -> "Do I have enough equity to make this a +EV call".

Edit: To illustrate what I'm saying, look at the first two lines of the thread:

I just sat down at this table. I have no current read on the villian.

Should I have made the call?
06-11-2009, 10:51 PM

I think his value range is a lot of 7x, but not boats or quads
so 78, 75s, 76, 7Ts, K7s type of crap because if he had a boat or quads he'd either slowplay or c/r the turn (or donk small)
but the lone seven is the kind of hand that is like shit, I don't want to get sucked out by a draw

his semi-bluff range is clubs without the ace most of the time because it would make more sense to raise the flop with a straight draw
if he had the ace, he'd be more inclined to bet or c/c since he has showdown value and has very little to fear from other draws

so now we have to see how much air he has in his range

having done this analysis, we're either like crushing him or we are owned hardcore so we basically have a bluff catcher
thread title might as well be 25nl bluff catcher ??

the hands that he could turn into a bluff are pretty much pps that he called the flop with and then randomly changed his mind
I mean why would he call the flop with KQ and then shove the turn anyway, nothing really changed to make an ace fold this
I just don't think he can expect us to fold an ace which is why I fold

I realize I give my opponent a lot of credit, but he's telling me something very congruent with how a weak-tight plays 7x
06-11-2009, 11:14 PM
dejection08

I guess I could have made some analysis of the hand, but for me it stumped me. It was a very awkward move on his part to just shove when the 7 peeled off on the turn. How do you give a guy a hand range by just playing 3 hands with him? Granted I gave him credit for something better than my top 2.

I just don't understand, how him shoving on the turn values his hand. I wanted to see if others would have made the call and if I was giving the guy too much credit from the sb.

Iopq, I agree that a week tight player may play like this, but how do you determine a player is tight without some type of hand history with the player?

I made the conservative play and folded, but i question if it was a bad fold. My apologies for posting with a bad title your right it should have been 25 nl bluff catcher.
06-11-2009, 11:18 PM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by dejection08

I guess I could have made some analysis of the hand, but for me it stumped me.

If you'll look, the rest of your post is an extension of this one line. It's hard to analyze this spot because you don't have a frame of reference, so what you've gotta do is jump in and start making one. Start out by estimating a range he could have, then figure out the EV of calling. Then see what happens to the EV of a call if you tweak that range a bit in one direction or another. Repeat this a few times and you'll develop a good feel for the spot.

What you shouldn't be doing is falling into this mental trap of seeing something you aren't familiar with and shying away from picking it apart and trying to figure out how it works.
06-11-2009, 11:33 PM
dejection08

My analysis of the hand

Flop: He could have floated me or pp, some type of straight

He check calls the flop

Turn: he Shoves when the 7 comes off.

Analysis: What hands would just shove here??? could be a bluff, 7x, AA?
If he had a monster hand like a's full or quads why would you shove here?
maybe a semi strong hand like trip 7'? So final conclusion was to fold. Its only a +Ev call if hes trying to prevent me from drawing, and he's holding Ax w/o the 7.
06-11-2009, 11:40 PM
Sir Pawnalot

Analysis

a. The separation of an intellectual or material whole into its constituent parts for individual study.
b. The study of such constituent parts and their interrelationships in making up a whole.
c. A spoken or written presentation of such study: published an analysis of poetic meter.

My disagreement lies herein. We dont know the constituent parts in this instance unless we have great experience with the site and the player base. Therefore we cannot analyse it.

Its like analysing a German poem without reading it. If we have read thousand German poems we can reach a level of understanding which is at best better than guessing. But lets say that 600 of the poems you read were dull you can bet your money on the peom being dull.

If OP has limited experience he is entitled of asking which button to push because he cannot possibly reach that solution with simple deduciton.

We must base our logics on induction and as we all know that is fragile yet useful information. By asking the question he obtains more experience.

A poll would have been very interesting as this is a great way to increase the knowledge about these spots which can be very profitable or costly depending on whether your decision is right or wrong.

I agree with your reasong iopq. Many 7s here.
06-12-2009, 12:03 AM
spoonitnow

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sir Pawnalot

Analysis

a. The separation of an intellectual or material whole into its constituent parts for individual study.
b. The study of such constituent parts and their interrelationships in making up a whole.
c. A spoken or written presentation of such study: published an analysis of poetic meter.

My disagreement lies herein. We dont know the constituent parts in this instance unless we have great experience with the site and the player base. Therefore we cannot analyse it.

Its like analysing a German poem without reading it. If we have read thousand German poems we can reach a level of understanding which is at best better than guessing. But lets say that 600 of the poems you read were dull you can bet your money on the peom being dull.

If OP has limited experience he is entitled of asking which button to push because he cannot possibly reach that solution with simple deduciton.

We must base our logics on induction and as we all know that is fragile yet useful information. By asking the question he obtains more experience.

A poll would have been very interesting as this is a great way to increase the knowledge about these spots which can be very profitable or costly depending on whether your decision is right or wrong.

I agree with your reasong iopq. Many 7s here.

Holy shit you're making this too complicated, and the main reason is what I've put in bold from the quote above. The missing part is Villain's range, which we never know exactly no matter what our reads or stats are on our opponent, so we're always estimating. He doesn't gain experience by asking the question, he gains experience by analyzing the situation based on various estimates of the range. I outlined one way to analyze the situation above.

What I mean is that OP's question shouldn't be "should I call", but it should be "is ________ a reasonable range to assume?" along with the rest of his analysis. That way his actual thought process can be picked apart and improved, which is what creates experience. What iopq said earlier is basically a rewording of this type of thought process.

Edit: I've come back to clarify what I meant by the bold in the above portion in the quote. It's kind of daunting to try to base some analysis off of what seems to be a shaky range, but here it's the best we can do. If we dive in and try to make estimates and talk about our estimates themselves, then our estimates improve, and that's how we build experience, by getting down and dirty with it.