1 Hand for Review

First off was a tight table was just about to get off I have been running it over and getting some cards so I prob looked very fishing and playing to many hands. I had 3 bet the last few hands aswell. Very tight player 15/9 over 180 hands Raises UTG then 28/4 over 127 calls so 2 tight players plus the loose 41/32 that I have been playing pots with enters so I figure I call with my 34s hoping to break a big hand.

Now my question comes with did I do the right thing I mean i really figured he had some over pair and that I have been looking spewing recently.








No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Hold'em Manager Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP ($9.75)
CO ($10.15)
Button ($6.70)
Hero (SB) ($22.15)
BB ($5.35)
UTG ($11.90)

Preflop: Hero is SB with 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
UTG bets $0.35, MP calls $0.35, CO calls $0.35, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold

Flop: ($1.50) 3http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (4 players)
Hero bets $1.20, UTG raises $2.60, 2 folds, Hero raises $10, UTG raises $8.95 (All-In), Hero calls $0.35

nothing wrong with the hand as played given recent history at the table. Without this history, this line is the best way to get him to fold his overpair.

I also like to call the flop raise and check-shove any turn.

You played it fine.
Holdem is what Holdem is.

You played this fine. If he has a set oh well.

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Originally Posted by daven

nothing wrong with the hand as played given recent history at the table. Without this history, this line is the best way to get him to fold his overpair.

I also like to call the flop raise and check-shove any turn.

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thx guys that comforts me it just so happened he had the set that time haha.

and thx ya I like that to the call / shove turn might try that next time so maybe not only sets will call me like on my flop shove

Fold pre.

Shit position and don't even bother with connectors below 45s.

As played, it's either shove or fold to the flop raise. Either way I can't imagine a hand you're crushing so you're going to lose this pot quite often. I think there is enough in the pot already to be ok with that.

I might check/bomb it all in because so many turn cards are difficult to play OOP.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

Fold pre.

Shit position and don't even bother with connectors below 45s.

As played, it's either shove or fold to the flop raise. Either way I can't imagine a hand you're crushing so you're going to lose this pot quite often. I think there is enough in the pot already to be ok with that.

I might check/bomb it all in because so many turn cards are difficult to play OOP.

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What Fnord says. I actually think you need to get to 65s before your connectors are really worth playing in no limit, and when you play them out of position, you are taking a huge risk of action after you forcing you into very difficult situations. (Indeed, that's what got you into this situation on the flop.)

calling with Suited Connectors is over-rated. I like to raise and re-raise with them.

Doing so without position is at best marginal.

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Originally Posted by LawDude

What Fnord says. I actually think you need to get to 65s before your connectors are really worth playing in no limit, and when you play them out of position, you are taking a huge risk of action after you forcing you into very difficult situations. (Indeed, that's what got you into this situation on the flop.)

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Say he calls 65s pf and the flop is 65T...Villain still hits his set and we still have two pair. Isnt one of the goals of suited connectors to play larger/mutli way pots? Hero is getting 4:1 on his sb defense and isnt that big of a dog equity wise vs these opponents ranges where it couldnt become profitable.

I also think you played it correctly, although i see more times then not the over pair hits a 10 and catches two pair also, but low limits and if you bankroll allows you to play these hands its not bad at all

Flop set get paid what the fuck did you even post this hand for

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

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Originally Posted by LawDude

What Fnord says. I actually think you need to get to 65s before your connectors are really worth playing in no limit, and when you play them out of position, you are taking a huge risk of action after you forcing you into very difficult situations. (Indeed, that's what got you into this situation on the flop.)

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Say he calls 65s pf and the flop is 65T...Villain still hits his set and we still have two pair. Isnt one of the goals of suited connectors to play larger/mutli way pots? Hero is getting 4:1 on his sb defense and isnt that big of a dog equity wise vs these opponents ranges where it couldnt become profitable.

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I disagree with Fnord a bit about raising suited connectors for this reason (though I should make clear that my disagreement is not complete-- raising suited connectors has plausible arguments in its favor). In my mind, the ideal scenario for suited connectors is to be able to get in cheaply into a multiway pot with late position against players with big stacks. That's when you are getting the best implied odds.

But Fnord and I agree that calling a raised pot with 43s out of position is a dangerous play.

I think it was a good play especially thinking he was on Aces. I try to play suited connectors for straights and flushes... thinking that if i get two pair, i'm probably good but maybe not. Even flushes i walk gently because of high possible flushes. The best scenario would be the flopped straight or open ender.

Fold the 2-3s preflop imo. Your not gonna hit ofton and when you do stuff like this happens or the board pairs up so he has a better two pair with his overpair. You know your a big underdog but yet you put money in the middle hoping for a miracle!?!? Think you get the miracle and stack off with bottom two. I would fold preflop but thats just me...to each his own. To many if ands or buts with it when you do hit something. i cant even count how many times ive been run over by a bigger flush with baby suited connectors. I'm looking for top two pair or better on the flop, im not much of a chaser unless im priced in or have incredibly implied odds. So yea id fold a 2-3s, but like i said to each his own.

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Originally Posted by LawDude

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

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Originally Posted by LawDude

What Fnord says. I actually think you need to get to 65s before your connectors are really worth playing in no limit, and when you play them out of position, you are taking a huge risk of action after you forcing you into very difficult situations. (Indeed, that's what got you into this situation on the flop.)

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Say he calls 65s pf and the flop is 65T...Villain still hits his set and we still have two pair. Isnt one of the goals of suited connectors to play larger/mutli way pots? Hero is getting 4:1 on his sb defense and isnt that big of a dog equity wise vs these opponents ranges where it couldnt become profitable.

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I disagree with Fnord a bit about raising suited connectors for this reason (though I should make clear that my disagreement is not complete-- raising suited connectors has plausible arguments in its favor). In my mind, the ideal scenario for suited connectors is to be able to get in cheaply into a multiway pot with late position against players with big stacks. That's when you are getting the best implied odds.

But Fnord and I agree that calling a raised pot with 43s out of position is a dangerous play.

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I wasn't saying that the call pf was great, it just isn't that terrible. Its actually pretty easy to play post flop as you c/f a ton of flops and the few that you hit will likely be the best hand...I think the title of this thread should have been "How to play 34s oop and fold with two pair" or "What are villains ranges and can I stack off".

I think the real way to benefit from a hand like this is improving your ranges and reading ability. With the action on the flop, I could see a great discussion on what ranges villains have and what hero's equity is against those ranges. As I'm sure someone could have come up with a plausible reason to fold here.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

calling with Suited Connectors is over-rated. I like to raise and re-raise with them.

Doing so without position is at best marginal.

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+1 although I am guilty of CC in position at times

Let's talk about how much calling with 43s here sucks pre-flop.

We're out of position against a bunch of guys. That sucks.

We flop a flush the same amount of time as with any other two suited cards, but we can never flush over flush someone. That sucks.

If you had 87s, how many flops are straights for you? JT9, T96, T65, 654. If you have 43s, how many flops are straights for you? 765, 652, 52A. We are flopping a straight 25% less often. That sucks.

The other real killer here is that we flop an OESD much less often but I don't feel like listing out all of the flops. That sucks.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

Let's talk about how much calling with 43s here sucks pre-flop.

We're out of position against a bunch of guys. That sucks.

We flop a flush the same amount of time as with any other two suited cards, but we can never flush over flush someone. That sucks.

If you had 87s, how many flops are straights for you? JT9, T96, T65, 654. If you have 43s, how many flops are straights for you? 765, 652, 52A. We are flopping a straight 25% less often. That sucks.

The other real killer here is that we flop an OESD much less often but I don't feel like listing out all of the flops. That sucks.

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All of these apply in every position minus #1. Which is why I said its easy to fold post flop if you miss. I think with the ranges I put everyone on hero was around 16% equity to win pf. How much does hero have to win to make this play break even/profitable? $2/$3?

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

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Originally Posted by Fnord

calling with Suited Connectors is over-rated. I like to raise and re-raise with them.

Doing so without position is at best marginal.

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+1 although I am guilty of CC in position at times

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Despite what Fnord said (and bearing in mind that Fnord knows quite a bit more about poker than I do), there's nothing wrong with calling in position in a multi-way pot with suited connectors, so long as the other players' stacks are large enough. In this situation, you are basically flush- and straight-mining (and, 2-pair- and trips-mining). You are looking to flop the big hand or the big draw. When you are betting on the come, implied odds are the most important factor, because you are looking to get a big payoff when you hit.

When you raise your suited connectors, you are cutting your implied odds. Which means, you are getting less EV from your hand with respect to situations where you hit the big hand or the big draw. So that means you better be able to make up for it with fold equity on flops you don't hit. Fnord is a very good player and is able to do this. But you need to have confidence in your post-flop play, your table image, and your understanding of how the other players in the hand respond to aggression if you are going to take this line profitably. Whereas, if you simply call, it's less of a concern.

^^^ most people think this, but they're wrong.

I'll go into more detail later. Balln' up up in Veags with other people's monies...

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Originally Posted by Fnord

^^^ most people think this, but they're wrong.

I'll go into more detail later. Balln' up up in Veags with other people's monies...

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Fnord, with respect, it is mathematically axiomatic.

If the action comes to you and you call with your suited connectors, your potential implied odds are the sum of, for each player, the lesser of your stack or that player's stack, divided by your pre-flop bet. (Your actual implied odds will be lower because you won't get everyone to stack off with you post-flop.)

If you raise, your implied odds are the same numerator divided by your pre-flop bet which is now a larger denominator. Thus, you have cut your potential implied odds.

By the way, I didn't mention this, but if someone folds, you just cut your potential implied odds even more because you won't be getting that player's stack.

Thus, by definition, because you are getting smaller potential implied odds you need to make up for that with fold equity post-flop.

As I said, I suspect you do this (which is what most good players do who raise suited connectors), and that's fine. But a raise is ONLY a +EV play if you actually can do this. If you can't, it's better to call.

In any event, good luck in Vegas!

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

All of these apply in every position minus #1. Which is why I said its easy to fold post flop if you miss. I think with the ranges I put everyone on hero was around 16% equity to win pf. How much does hero have to win to make this play break even/profitable? $2/$3?

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The times you don't get to see all 5 board cards make your equity preflop much less relevant. A similar example would be AK v QQ that sees a flop. We might be close to a flip, but we don't get to see the turn/river often enough for it to matter so much.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

All of these apply in every position minus #1. Which is why I said its easy to fold post flop if you miss. I think with the ranges I put everyone on hero was around 16% equity to win pf. How much does hero have to win to make this play break even/profitable? $2/$3?

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The times you don't get to see all 5 board cards make your equity preflop much less relevant. A similar example would be AK v QQ that sees a flop. We might be close to a flip, but we don't get to see the turn/river often enough for it to matter so much.

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This is a great point that I don't think gets made enough. It also applies to hands like small pocket pairs. When evaluating how to play your hand preflop, you have to take into account not only the likelihood that you will have the best hand, but also the likelihood that you will be able to see a showdown with your hand when it is best.

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Originally Posted by LawDude

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

All of these apply in every position minus #1. Which is why I said its easy to fold post flop if you miss. I think with the ranges I put everyone on hero was around 16% equity to win pf. How much does hero have to win to make this play break even/profitable? $2/$3?

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The times you don't get to see all 5 board cards make your equity preflop much less relevant. A similar example would be AK v QQ that sees a flop. We might be close to a flip, but we don't get to see the turn/river often enough for it to matter so much.

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This is a great point that I don't think gets made enough. It also applies to hands like small pocket pairs. When evaluating how to play your hand preflop, you have to take into account not only the likelihood that you will have the best hand, but also the likelihood that you will be able to see a showdown with your hand when it is best.

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Well in other forms of poker it's not always that big of a deal, like take Razz for instance.

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Originally Posted by spoonitnow

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

All of these apply in every position minus #1. Which is why I said its easy to fold post flop if you miss. I think with the ranges I put everyone on hero was around 16% equity to win pf. How much does hero have to win to make this play break even/profitable? $2/$3?

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The times you don't get to see all 5 board cards make your equity preflop much less relevant. A similar example would be AK v QQ that sees a flop. We might be close to a flip, but we don't get to see the turn/river often enough for it to matter so much.

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So how are we supposed to look at things preflop? The texture of our holdings on the flop is a key factor for me when I choose to go with a hand or not (obv there are others).

But take the op HH for example. If hero is at 16% equity and his CC places 1.50 in the pot. Hero has to bet 1/3 pot and get called to make his pf CC profitable in the long run. With 3 players to act after, its likely he will get this call.

If I understand the quoted post above. Equity shouldn't be taken into consideration as much as position and likelihood of our hand improving on the flop. But to me the issue is that we don't know if the flop will hit us or not. Sure, there are hands that are more likely to improve than others but its still not certain. So why does equity take a back seat pf to a higher suited connector just because it can "flop more"?
--On a side note: It seems like folding certain hands in certain positions due to our likelihood of improvement seems kind of nitty when your implied odds are telling you the play is correct.

I was always told make the best decision on that specific street at that specific moment (yes other streets can influence this choice). If things change along the way to the river, change gears and act accordingly.

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

But take the op HH for example. If hero is at 16% equity and his CC places 1.50 in the pot. Hero has to bet 1/3 pot and get called to make his pf CC profitable in the long run. With 3 players to act after, its likely he will get this call.

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I've singled out this portion of what you said because your understanding here is incorrect. Your equity preflop doesn't tell you how often you're going to win the hand, which is what you'll need to estimate (based on things like how often you hit the flop and get to see the rest of the hand) if you have the implied odds to play the hand or not.

Equity, or “chance to win.” For instance, if three people see the flop, each of the three hands will have some chance of winning. The sum of their chances to win is of course 100%.

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Equity, or “chance to win.” For instance, if three people see the flop, each of the three hands will have some chance of winning. The sum of their chances to win is of course 100%.

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Equity is your chance to win if all betting stopped and the rest of the cards in the hand were dealt out. But this is not the true % of the time you're going to win the hand, which is part of the information you need to decide if you have the implied odds to continue.

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Equity, or “chance to win.” For instance, if three people see the flop, each of the three hands will have some chance of winning. The sum of their chances to win is of course 100%.

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your chance to win the hand is super irrelevant
for example, calling a raise with 22 against someone who you know holds KK+ because they are a super duper nit is EV+ despite you having 18% equity and needing ~30% to call

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Originally Posted by iopq

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Equity, or “chance to win.” For instance, if three people see the flop, each of the three hands will have some chance of winning. The sum of their chances to win is of course 100%.

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your chance to win the hand is super irrelevant
for example, calling a raise with 22 against someone who you know holds KK+ because they are a super duper nit is EV+ despite you having 18% equity and needing ~30% to call

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What spoon means by your chance to win is the likelihood that-- either because you win a showdown or because you get someone to fold-- you will actually take the pot down. And with respect to certain hands, your chance to win is less than your equity because often you will be forced to fold the hand to serious action even when you are ahead.

The best example of this in my mind is a small pocket pair like 33. In many situations where you are coinflip in terms of equity, your chance to win is actually less than that because you will have an underpair and won't be able to call any serious amount of action post-flop even just from players with overcards or draws.

The 43s that the original poster played from the blind is also an example of this. With 43s against a pre-flop raiser, if you flop 1 pair, you're often going to have no idea whether it is good or not. So you have to discount your equity somewhat for the chances that you will be forced to fold what was actually the best hand.

Im lost to how that doesnt matter so I guess leak found...here is my math:

You have 22 vs KK:

Hand 0: 18.187% 17.92% { 22 }
Hand 1: 81.813% 81.54% { KK }

Out of every 100 hands, KK will win 81 times and 22 will win 18 times (and give or take the remaining 1%).

Out of the 100 hands you have. 22 your odds of making a set on the flop/turn/river are 1:9.

If it costs you $2 to limp and hypothetically KK never raises, then over the 100 hand scenario you have invested $200 total ($400 total KK+22 money intested). Out of that $400, KK will win $326.16, and 22 will win $71.68. For a difference of $254.48 ($2.16 remainder).

Since you will make a set 1 out of every 9 times. You have to multiply your $2 limp investment by 8 (the total # of times KK wins our money) =$16. So for every time you make a set, you need to win (your investment) x 8 =$16 back from your opponent to make the draw break even. He wins your $2 8 times = $16, You win $16 from him 1=$16.

In this 100 hand sample, you will make a set 8.4 times. Lets now say KK will only call a raise and never bet. There is $4 in the pot and you need to build the pot to $32 to make back the $16 you invested and lost to KK all 8 of the previous times. Since KK always calls. You bet $16 and like clockwork he follows. This is now almost a break even play.

But your only able to win 8.40 times out of the total 100; 8.4 x 16 = $134.40. However, if those 8.4 times are the only times you will be making money KK is still worth $265.60, for a difference of $131.20.

edit: Granted this is only taking into account making a set, but I cant imagine 22 making a straight more than 2% of the time. So out of the 100 hands you play, 22 wins 10.4 times So for every time 22 makes a straight (1 out of 45.8) you have to get paid $91 and change to break even.

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Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Im lost to how that doesnt matter so I guess leak found...here is my math:

You have 22 vs KK:

Hand 0: 18.187% 17.92% { 22 }
Hand 1: 81.813% 81.54% { KK }

Out of every 100 hands, KK will win 81 times and 22 will win 18 times (and give or take the remaining 1%).

Out of the 100 hands you have. 22 your odds of making a set on the flop/turn/river are 1:9.

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No, the odds of making a set on the flop/turn/river are between 15-20%.

So what are you trying to show here again?

Its like fightclub nutsinho leaves and spoonitnow is back on the scene. My parents used to do this...

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Originally Posted by Seasider

Its like fightclub nutsinho leaves and spoonitnow is back on the scene. My parents used to do this...

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Their game > mine, so bring on whatever!

Im trying to figure out what the point of any pf equity is when none of it matters post flop anyways.

wtf fold PF

flatting with smaller sc's is ridiculously overrated, in and out of position

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

wtf fold PF

flatting with smaller sc's is ridiculously overrated, in and out of position

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ummmmmmmmmmmmmmm...THIS! why the poophole corn holy shit are we discussing anything but the fact that flatting 43s OOP is mega -EV regardless of opponent.

i agree with the second paragraph because when we are in position we're better off 3betting 65s and 54s because we own no blockers to his raising range, and if he calls he has a hand that we can rape if we hit two pair+. i know i'm super teacher's petting here, but it's hard not to when this goddamn thread is about flatting a PFR with 43s OOP at 10nl. i mean jesus christ

FWIW I think the thread became a little more than just flatting 43s in a micro stakes game. At least thats how I was taking it.