3bet size vs multiple villains.

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06-06-2009, 04:47 PM
Keith

3bet size vs multiple villains.

Came across this situation last night as was totally stumped as to the size of the 3bet I should make. I was afraid that if I bet too small then each caller effectively prices in more callers and I'd be out of position. I've since thought that If I'd just shoved , it could have looked like I was trying to steal the pot and may have got some callers who may have folded to a standard 3bet situation.It was the number of callers that stumped me.

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG gr2player ($10.45)
UTG+1 BoNe1987 ($3.50)56/11/1.5
CO Ouhi ($7.45)57/0/1.0
BTN elwapo07 ($10.30)45/11/1
SB Hero ($10.00)
BB zu san li ($5.75)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB :ad: :ah:
1 fold, BoNe1987 raises to $0.20, Ouhi calls $0.20, elwapo07 calls $0.20, [color=#cc0000][b]Hero raises to ????
06-06-2009, 05:19 PM
bigspenda73

Do the George Washington and talk with your chips
06-06-2009, 05:25 PM
Robb

Anything between $.80 and $1.00 should be fine. I'd opt more for $1.00 since you're oop the whole hand. I'd bet $.80 if I was in a similar situation otb.
06-06-2009, 06:25 PM
Keith

$0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
6 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG gr2player ($10.45)
UTG+1 BoNe1987 ($3.50)
CO Ouhi ($7.45)
BTN elwapo07 ($10.30)
SB Hero ($10.00)
BB zu san li ($5.75)

Pre-flop: ($0.15, 6 players) Hero is SB :ad: :ah:
1 fold, BoNe1987 raises to $0.20, Ouhi calls $0.20, elwapo07 calls $0.20, Hero raises to $1.70, 1 fold, BoNe1987 folds, Ouhi folds, elwapo07 folds

Final Pot: $0.90

Hero wins $2.40 ( won +$0.70 )
BoNe1987 lost -$0.20
Ouhi lost -$0.20
elwapo07 lost -$0.20

obviously my bet blew them out of the water , but thats why I was wondering what a better size would be. I protected my hand , but I think that I didn't get the most value out of it that I could have.
06-06-2009, 06:52 PM
Robb

Sometimes, they just don't have anything. That's why the squeeze works - the overcallers have worse and worse hands, so you only have to bet enough to make the PFR nervous. You're thrilled if you can get the PFR to fold the best hand (other than yours, obv), then get one or more of the overcallers in with their 96s and A3o.
06-06-2009, 06:53 PM
only_bridge

Well, they might have folded to a smaller bet too. And if you make it too small they all call. I always find it difficult to isolate just one opponent in this situation, especially from button.
06-06-2009, 08:21 PM

yeah I make it like .8 because I'm greedy and I realize I can bet two streets to get all-in post flop
06-06-2009, 08:39 PM
revolvingiris

I'd make it a dollar because my post flop game is weak.
06-06-2009, 11:53 PM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by only_bridge

Well, they might have folded to a smaller bet too. And if you make it too small they all call. I always find it difficult to isolate just one opponent in this situation, especially from button.

We've got AA, who wants just one opponent on the flop? If they'll join the party, let 'em.
06-07-2009, 12:04 AM

wait, I changed my mind I thought this was 5NL
I like 1.4
06-07-2009, 05:22 AM
Keith

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by only_bridge

Well, they might have folded to a smaller bet too. And if you make it too small they all call. I always find it difficult to isolate just one opponent in this situation, especially from button.

We've got AA, who wants just one opponent on the flop? If they'll join the party, let 'em.

With this in mind I stoved the following

Code:

equity win tie pots won pots tied Hand 0: 61.956% 61.45% 00.51% 20171833190 166266660.50 { AhAd } Hand 1: 13.456% 12.81% 00.64% 4206377959 210669361.33 { 22+, A9s+, KJs+, QJs, ATo+ } Hand 2: 12.571% 11.93% 00.65% 3914602563 212002696.83 { 22+, A7s+, K9s+, QTs+, JTs, ATo+, KTo+, QJo } Hand 3: 12.018% 11.34% 00.68% 3722694175 222317210.33 { 22+, A5s+, K9s+, Q9s+, J9s+, A9o+, KTo+, QTo+ }

Assumed that the later players ranges would widen as the pot odds increased, not sure whether I should have left AA KK in though, but from the stats they seemed pretty weak passives so could have been slowplaying.
If they all called the 1$ bet Robb is suggesting , whats the best approach on the flop, now that we are out of position, the pot is bigger than bones stack,and roughly half the other two guys stacks.
Pot sized cbet and calling a shove on a non paired flop or is the shove going to say that they hit their set/straight etc?.

I assume that Spenda's comment meant to shove all in? and if so is that so the Ax hands and big PPs will go all in too? or is it so that only the big PPs who we dominate can afford to put the money in thinking that we are just trying to steal the pot and that they have decent equity against the range they put us on ?.

If in this scenario we had been on the button or even in the blinds as this case was, whats the range we could profitably squeeze with here . Given that it was an UTG min raise and callers all of which are weak passives should or squeezing range be massive here ?.Also is it a case of the worse our hand the bigger our bet should be to deter callers , or would that just be transparent at higher stakes?.
06-07-2009, 06:01 AM
Dannyboy6

I think $1.70 a bit too much considering, though I think it was almost the right move at that point, considering one of them was not too deep, which could've triggered an all-in and fold.
06-07-2009, 07:39 AM
AFchung

i think $1 is good

but 1.7 is waaay overboard
06-07-2009, 09:03 AM
Robb

Keith, even leaving KK/AA in the ranges, Hero still has massive equity in a 4-way pot. Thanks for stoving it for everyone to see. With the best hand NLH pokerz, we want as many villains to join the party as possible.

Also, I think the "George Washington" from Spenda meant bet a dollar.
06-07-2009, 11:15 AM
Keith

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Keith, even leaving KK/AA in the ranges, Hero still has massive equity in a 4-way pot. Thanks for stoving it for everyone to see. With the best hand NLH pokerz, we want as many villains to join the party as possible.

Also, I think the "George Washington" from Spenda meant bet a dollar.

Ah ..thanks for clearing up the "Washington" reference , it doesn't come up this side of the atlantic. Whats the best approach on the flop assuming they all come along and now we're OOP in a 3bet pot ? pot , 1/2 pot will get everyone all in by the turn , or would you go the 2/3 pot, all in on turn route
06-07-2009, 01:26 PM
Robb

Postflop, just get it all in with a 1/2 psb and then call any raise. If there's any left on the turn, just stick it in unless the board is HORRIBLE and you know you're toast. You're gonna be behind lots when you see a river, but you'll take it down / get called by TPTK/KK/QQ hands a lot, too. Multiway you lose more, but that's more than conpensated by the amount of dead money left in the pot as various villains stick it in too light or fold after contributing 1/3 of their stack.
06-07-2009, 02:38 PM
bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Also, I think the "George Washington" from Spenda meant bet a dollar.

ding ding ding

also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlTE5j7aEf0

that's what I get for making a pop-culture reference outside the commune.
06-07-2009, 03:01 PM
FateAver

for $0.05/$0.1 No Limit Holdem
I think $0.8-$1 will be good
06-07-2009, 04:11 PM
AFchung

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I'd make it a dollar because my post flop game is weak.

in a multiway 3bet pot, the pots are bloated. And with aces its hard to really make a mistake post flop
06-07-2009, 05:25 PM
revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFchung

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I'd make it a dollar because my post flop game is weak.

in a multiway 3bet pot, the pots are bloated. And with aces its hard to really make a mistake post flop

I'd fuck it up.
06-07-2009, 06:19 PM
Robb

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFchung

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I'd make it a dollar because my post flop game is weak.

in a multiway 3bet pot, the pots are bloated. And with aces its hard to really make a mistake post flop

I'd fuck it up.

Only if you folded :wink:
06-07-2009, 06:46 PM
AFchung

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFchung

Quote:

Originally Posted by revolvingiris

I'd make it a dollar because my post flop game is weak.

in a multiway 3bet pot, the pots are bloated. And with aces its hard to really make a mistake post flop

I'd fuck it up.

just setmine aces and all PPs :D
06-07-2009, 07:19 PM
revolvingiris

Operation super nit: Fold all but nut straight+nut flush with AA only...Make sure to post PS info so I can ship $$ for time I have wasted :-)
06-07-2009, 08:50 PM
kfaess

Quote:

Originally Posted by bigspenda73

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Also, I think the "George Washington" from Spenda meant bet a dollar.

ding ding ding

also

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FlTE5j7aEf0

that's what I get for making a pop-culture reference outside the commune.

hahaha that's pretty good but I don't know if anyone got it before it was explained.

Also, I'd probably make it around 1.00
06-08-2009, 02:41 AM
PlayToWin

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFchung

in a multiway 3bet pot, the pots are bloated. And with aces its hard to really make a mistake post flop

This is wrong.

Quote:

Originally Posted by AFchung

just setmine aces and all PPs :D

Thanks for the clarification.
06-08-2009, 03:04 AM
bigspenda73

the correct size is arbitrary here, it's a feel thing, you should know more than us what's the maximum size these players are willing to call PF. Something as small as $1.00 "protects" your hand but if they'll call $1.25 with the same frequency that is obviously better. Paying more attention might allow you to know if they limp/call, limp/fold, etc... to different size raises.

Just another thing people miss out on b/c they either aren't paying enough attention or don't know what to look for while paying attention.
06-08-2009, 09:16 AM
Keith

Part of what stumped me was that the original raise was a min raise . If he'd done a more standard raise from UTG then my cbet would have probably have been around the $1 mark anyway. I just hadn't got a clue about how to allow for all the extra callers in the situation.
06-08-2009, 09:37 AM
Luco

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robb

Sometimes, they just don't have anything. That's why the squeeze works - the overcallers have worse and worse hands, so you only have to bet enough to make the PFR nervous.

This.