10nl: TPGK OOP

No stats on villain I'm afraid. Any general comments on my (not wonderful) play most welcome, I'm fairly sure I should be betting more on the turn? Are we folding here or do we kind of have to pay this off?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

saw flop

UTG+1 ($2.65)
MP1 ($9.95)
Hero (MP2) ($10.90)
MP3 ($3.80)
CO ($11.40)
Button ($10)
SB ($12.40)
BB ($11)
UTG ($11.30)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/jc.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ac.gif
3 folds, Hero bets $0.40, 1 fold, CO calls $0.40, Button calls $0.40, 2 folds

Flop: ($1.35) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/5h.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ad.gif (3 players)
Hero bets $1.10, CO calls $1.10, 1 fold

Turn: ($3.55) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/2h.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $1.90, CO calls $1.90

River: ($7.35) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/3d.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $4, CO raises to $8 (All-In)

Hero?

You probably should have folded pre-flop, but instafold on the river. AJo is a marginal hand unless you're in a better situation and position against a known opponent whose range you beat or can expect good action from on a favorable board.

On the flop, even if I have AK, I probably check for pot control against a fully stacked villain on a dry board. This board is coordinated and once he calls, I think it's time to shutdown.

On the turn, the board is even more coordinated and maybe you can fire a barrel IF you have position and a read, but you have neither.

On the river, the board now pairs making it even more scary, and you make a last ditch effort to win the pot to which you are met with an all-in re-raise. Clearly fold.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

You probably should have folded pre-flop, but instafold on the river. AJo is a marginal hand unless you're in a better situation and position against a known opponent whose range you beat or can expect good action from on a favorable board.

On the flop, even if I have AK, I probably check for pot control against a fully stacked villain on a dry board. This board is coordinated and once he calls, I think it's time to shutdown.

On the turn, the board is even more coordinated and maybe you can fire a barrel IF you have position and a read, but you have neither.

On the river, the board now pairs making it even more scary, and you make a last ditch effort to win the pot to which you are met with an all-in re-raise. Clearly fold.

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I pretty much disagree with your entire post EXCEPT that folding pre CAN be the better play, depending on your skill level, the tendencies of the ppl left to act etc. Opening this is not a huge leak though.

Going for potcontrol here on the flop with AJ (much less AK) is very very bad vs an unknown (actually vs pretty much anybody). Also you seem to be undecided whether it's a dry board or a coordinated one.

On the turn after villain just called the flop I really see no reason not to bet for value again. I would make it bigger though to set up a nice river shove.

On the river I wouldn't make a last ditch effort to win the hand but much rather a last ditch effort to get his whole stack in.

You'll have to bet your hands for value especially when your opponents merely call all your bets. do they have you beat sometimes? Do they slowplay a set sometimes? Hell yeah! That doesn't change the profitability of bet-bet-ship here one bit.

One thing tho. When I say bet-bet-ship I mean bet/fold obviously (at least flop and turn, can't really b/f when shipping I guess) once someone raises you, you can safely assume that they do it with a range that has one pair beat.

Thanks Jason.

I think I agree with you on turn and usually I would check the river. Stupidly I was playing tired and not thinking clearly. Think when I'm feeling like that I need to learn to stop BEFORE I get into a situation like this one.

That said, are we really folding this PF and not betting when we hit?

Anyone else?

Not having any stats on the Villain makes this a tough hand.

Your Pre flop Play: AA KK would be worth 0.35-0.40 The Ac Jc I may have wagered only 0.20-0.25 Just to get some action on the hand. But it worked out you got 2 callers at 0.40 and that's all the action you really wanted.

Flop: The pot was $1.35 and you wagered $1.10 Not a bad wager at all. No reason not to think that you have the best hand at this point. You want to take it down right here or you would not mind a call for a little action. So good play.

Turn: This is kind of a scare card here, but still no reason not to wager and see where you stand. $3.55 in the pot and the 1.90 bet is not bad. You are still showing your strong.

(Now the villain calls you, you have no stats on this guy. Right now I have to think one of two things. 1. Villain is a strong poker player and has played this hand real well. 2. Villain is a hack and is over playing his QQ he can not fold. Other possible hands he may have can be a PP due to his 0.40 pre flop call, maybe A 4 suited or even trip 5's.)

River: This was the only spot I really see you making a mistake in this situation. I would be looking to do more of a blocking bet in this spot. At this point you want a show down for as cheap as possible.

With that being said, you put yourself in a position to get involved in a big pot with a villain that you have very little info on. After the $4 river bet you kinda put yourself in the position to payoff his push.

I say pay it off at that point, if you win great. If you lose the hand u drop a buy-in and consider it lesson learned.

Thanks Sugar Nut, that makes a lot of sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar Nut

You'll have to bet your hands for value especially when your opponents merely call all your bets. do they have you beat sometimes? Do they slowplay a set sometimes? Hell yeah! That doesn't change the profitability of bet-bet-ship here one bit.

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This has been my understanding of how to play these types of hands for quite some time (I just fucked it up a bit in this case).

Anyone else?

Preflop and flop are fine. Turn is marginal. You can check/call against certain opponents for pot control. You can bet it in other situations. River, def c/f as played. The biggest problem as played was setting yourself up for the bet/fold river.

I don't see this board as +EV when you are able to get it in all-in versus an unknown on the river. And, I wasn't confused about the flop texture - it is wet and coordinated. I said that even if it WAS dry and uncoordinated, which it isn't, I'd still want to pot control flop or turn against an unknown, but even more so when coordinated. You can still get value when you're ahead without risking your stack and boards like these are generally the only way to do it because you'll more often lose your stack when you call and get called for large bets. I tend to give a little credit until proven otherwise to unknowns.

Hands that have you beat: 4x, 3x, 22, 55, and AQ+
Hands that you beat: Possibly AT- against bad villains of which we don't know anything about our villain

Robb, I wouldn't call c/c turn a "pot control" line because he might bet bigger than hero did ;)
I'd call it float induction

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

I tend to give a little credit until proven otherwise to unknowns.

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Well, I guess then the two of us just have a completely different approach towards unknowns. I assume everybody sucks until proven otherwise. That's why I'm firing all 3 streets here and expect to get called by worse often enough to make my line profitable. Is that line thin? Yes, it is, but we have BR management for thin plays like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sugar Nut

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

I tend to give a little credit until proven otherwise to unknowns.

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Well, I guess then the two of us just have a completely different approach towards unknowns. I assume everybody sucks until proven otherwise. That's why I'm firing all 3 streets here and expect to get called by worse often enough to make my line profitable. Is that line thin? Yes, it is, but we have BR management for thin plays like that.

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I tend to get paid off on the first two streets, but only a fish pays you off on the river with worse
I don't assume everyone is a fish

In this situation with these cards, the fish is the one calling the river, not pushing it ;) Although there are definitely a lot of fish @ $10NL, I don't think there's enough to make this profitable. Based on villain's stack size alone suggests to me he's more likely not a fish since he's fully stacked and has won 14BB to this point and has us covered.

But for the sake of argument, let's say he is a fish and may show up here sometimes with AT- or air. If he's that bad, why not wait for a better spot? Why do we feel the need to try to push a marginal hand on a board that likely has us crushed?

I'd just c/f the turn until I know more about this guy. He has to be quite loose/bad PF for us to believe we're valuebetting after the flop.

Really great input everybody, thanks very much.

I guess I was the fish here lol, I have to stop playing when I'm tired and not able to think clearly beyond level 0. I think that this is partly because I've found some of the play at 10nl to be really really poor (even worse than mine on this river) and so I'm probably pushing things a little too hard looking for value against players I'm assuming to be donks before I know for sure.

I guess I also need to get out of the thinking, subconsciously at least, that just because Villain makes a poor call and is way behind me PF (he did and he was) that he's somehow "not allowed" to have me beat by the river lol. Stupid I know.