Line check + river options deepish 100nl

vill is 21/21 over 40 or so hands. We have no relevant history. He got his stack when we both shipped AK pre him in UTG+1 me in SB. Ive been playing pretty aggro and may have a bad image. Um...can i ever raise this riv for value? Would it just be uber bad against an unknown?


edit: i planned to c/r riv after calling turn, but didnt know what to do after he overbet riv.

$0.5/$1 No Limit Holdem
5 players
Converted at weaktight.com

Stacks:
UTG ($205.30)
CO ($151.10)
BTN ($343.80)
Hero (SB) ($176.40)
BB ($115.05)

Pre-flop: ($1.50, 5 players) Hero is SB :qs: :kd:
UTG raises to $3, 2 folds, Hero calls $2.50, BB calls $2

Flop: :qc: :4s: :8h: ($9, 3 players)
Hero checks, BB checks, UTG bets $6, Hero calls $6, BB folds

Turn: :kh: ($21, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $13, Hero calls $13

River: :2d: ($47, 2 players)
Hero checks, UTG bets $51

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

vill is 21/21 over 40 or so hands. We have no relevant history. He got his stack when we both shipped AK pre him in UTG+1 me in SB.

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he seriously hit a flush on you? wow talk about gayness

i don't like pre-flop or turn.
river cib

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Originally Posted by daven

i don't like pre-flop or turn.
river cib

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why? pre we fold because...were behind his range bla bla bad reverse implied odds etc? Turn ....u want to c/r? u want to donk? Plz elaborate on your thought process so i can learn something.....that kind of reply doesn't help me at all..

I think there's an argument for donking the turn
and river is a totally sweet spot to cib because he's going to pukecall AK (when he should probably fold)

but agreeing with daven makes me feel uneasy and scared

Talk about weird sizing. Calling pre is prob okay if the BB doesnt squeeze much.

Donking a decent double-barrel turn seems not good and his sizing looks a lot like 22 or complete air. Dont fold, dont raise.

I would play it the same and I guess you can't really raise the river anymore. Not that you really could to begin with if this guy has a fold button.

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

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Originally Posted by daven

i don't like pre-flop or turn.
river cib

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why? pre we fold because...were behind his range bla bla bad reverse implied odds etc? Turn ....u want to c/r? u want to donk? Plz elaborate on your thought process so i can learn something.....that kind of reply doesn't help me at all..

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you pretty much answered your own question of why calling pre here is bad. As played i want to raise the turn just because his bet is so small, but i dont know if thats best. His line is really weird with the psb on the river, and it looks like AA/set of QQ/KK and obv we have blockers so obv the set is very unlikely.

As far as preflop goes, you have to fold, calling is pretty bad IMO unless his UTG opening range is like 18%. Reason is when it comes K high or Q high and you are getting action, he is very very very rarely going to have KJ or QJ, you'll always be dominated or he'll have an overpair or a set or whatever.

Against a competent opponent I think you are beat here pretty often. I'd expect to see a set that was trying to induce a raise from you on the turn that now is just betting for value on the river. If he's thinking it all, he can really only expect you to fold like AQ/QJ here, and if he wanted you to fold those, he would have bet bigger on the turn.

Given all that, I probably would have a tough time finding a fold. : /

id just flat it here, and yea fold pre if the guy opens tight

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

Against a competent opponent I think you are beat here pretty often. I'd expect to see a set that was trying to induce a raise from you on the turn that now is just betting for value on the river. If he's thinking it all, he can really only expect you to fold like AQ/QJ here, and if he wanted you to fold those, he would have bet bigger on the turn.

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I agree somewhat but I've seen people size their bets like this with draws betting small on the turn and then huge when they miss. I've also seen people get scared of this type of turn card with AA/AK but when you check-call and don't raise they decide they're good and bomb the river. I'd sigh and call.

Please please please please stop saying cib. it isnt cool and you dont know what it means. here you are saying to cib, which is impossible, because a cib is a min-reraise. Here you can only raise. This is a very common and simple maneuver you are looking to execute. It's called "minraise" or "minimum raise", and it is commonly associated with weak play rather than advanced play.

Also, this is a very very bad spot to minraise. It is incredibly likely that he is either beating you, chopping, or bluffing. In the event that he is Capable of bombing for thin value with AK/AA he is also very likely to be competent enough to fold these hands if raised.

As for other streets, preflop is bad, flop and turn are perfect.

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Originally Posted by bode

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

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Originally Posted by daven

i don't like pre-flop or turn.
river cib

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why? pre we fold because...were behind his range bla bla bad reverse implied odds etc? Turn ....u want to c/r? u want to donk? Plz elaborate on your thought process so i can learn something.....that kind of reply doesn't help me at all..

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you pretty much answered your own question of why calling pre here is bad. As played i want to raise the turn just because his bet is so small, but i dont know if thats best. His line is really weird with the psb on the river, and it looks like AA/set of QQ/KK and obv we have blockers so obv the set is very unlikely.

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i guess i never really finished this thought earlier. You get no value from raising and i cant find a fold here so call.

preflop is a fold, flop is fine, turn is fine as he'll often be barreling a scare card and will often follow up on the river with bluffs. Also if we raise the turn I'd expect all worse hands that would v bet the river to fold i.e. ak,aa,kj, aq etc, we don't wan't that. On the river due to his bet size i feel his range is mostly polarised to sets, kq and air, with weaker hands than kq that want to v bet I'd expect them to bet the river smaller, like $36ish. Due to the reasoning above I just call the river, I never fold but meh, maybe a leak.

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

Against a competent opponent I think you are beat here pretty often. I'd expect to see a set that was trying to induce a raise from you on the turn that now is just betting for value on the river. If he's thinking it all, he can really only expect you to fold like AQ/QJ here, and if he wanted you to fold those, he would have bet bigger on the turn.

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I agree somewhat but I've seen people size their bets like this with draws betting small on the turn and then huge when they miss. I've also seen people get scared of this type of turn card with AA/AK but when you check-call and don't raise they decide they're good and bomb the river. I'd sigh and call.

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Yeah that's why I think *if* he's a good competent opponent he won't show up with the missed draw here, because I think the weaker players would be sizing their turn bet small for a cheap card and a river bet big to try to "scare" us into folding. Doubt a thinking player would do something so transparent.

why do i think villain has EXACTLY 22 here?

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Originally Posted by Sugar Nut

why do i think villain has EXACTLY 22 here?

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I'm not sure. Surely he would always play other sets this way, and would only sometimes play 2-2 this aggressively on the flop and turn.

seems like a simple c/c-c/c-c/c

fold before dem 3 cards come tho

I guess the river can be debatable, but being a station is fun cuz then you never have to wonder what he had!@!!!#

Okay thanx guys good stuff. Just a basic pre question though, We're playing KQs here rite? And if we are, it's simply because of flush possibilities, which just play better post, more manoeuvrability etc? I'm a pre-flop donk.

And how big of a mistake/leak is playing this hand pre in this situation ^^^^.

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

Okay thanx guys good stuff. Just a basic pre question though, We're playing KQs here rite? And if we are, it's simply because of flush possibilities, which just play better post, more manoeuvrability etc? I'm a pre-flop donk.

And how big of a mistake/leak is playing this hand pre in this situation ^^^^.

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It could be not a mistake at all. It depends on what you know about your opponent and will be able to know if your hand is good or not rather than being put in a lot of weird/ugly spots without knowing what to do.

How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?

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Originally Posted by Fnord

How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?

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no wonder i suck @ live pokers

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

Okay thanx guys good stuff. Just a basic pre question though, We're playing KQs here rite? And if we are, it's simply because of flush possibilities, which just play better post, more manoeuvrability etc? I'm a pre-flop donk.

And how big of a mistake/leak is playing this hand pre in this situation ^^^^.

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It could be not a mistake at all. It depends on what you know about your opponent and will be able to know if your hand is good or not rather than being put in a lot of weird/ugly spots without knowing what to do.

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exaccttly. So the only reason that everyone is saying that pre is bad, is because he is an unknown and i don't seem to have a decent idea of how he plays. Or do most people here auto fold this hand pre despite the fact they think they have a really good idea of how there opponent plays.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?

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Why do you want to lead?

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

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Originally Posted by Galapogos

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

Okay thanx guys good stuff. Just a basic pre question though, We're playing KQs here rite? And if we are, it's simply because of flush possibilities, which just play better post, more manoeuvrability etc? I'm a pre-flop donk.

And how big of a mistake/leak is playing this hand pre in this situation ^^^^.

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It could be not a mistake at all. It depends on what you know about your opponent and will be able to know if your hand is good or not rather than being put in a lot of weird/ugly spots without knowing what to do.

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exaccttly. So the only reason that everyone is saying that pre is bad, is because he is an unknown and i don't seem to have a decent idea of how he plays. Or do most people here auto fold this hand pre despite the fact they think they have a really good idea of how there opponent plays.

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if we have an idea that he's tight, it's still a fold obv

if we know he's loose and bad postflop then sure, call... in general though its a fold, he opens UTG, you're OOP the whole hand etc etc.. not gonna be profitable

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

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Originally Posted by Fnord

How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?

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Why do you want to lead?

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Maximizes the range that puts money in on the turn, takes away free cards from hands that pot control, sets up 3-streets of value, sets up a re-raise if he's going to go crazy with AK/AA.

That said, the line may have balance issues depending on how you play these spots.

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Originally Posted by Fnord

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Originally Posted by AnTman_69

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Originally Posted by Fnord

How bad is it that I want to lead the turn?

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Why do you want to lead?

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Maximizes the range that puts money in on the turn, takes away free cards from hands that pot control, sets up 3-streets of value, sets up a re-raise if he's going to go crazy with AK/AA.

That said, the line may have balance issues depending on how you play these spots.

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actually pretty good line to take with air because it's a double barrel card and you don't want to get barreled
at the same time you're repping the king so while a queen might still call, whatever other marginal hands he might have will shit the bed and go away

Yeah, I just realized that the online TAgg-bots double barrel here a lot.

If that's the case, it could be a fun spot to c/r.

I'd prob call here. I think he cud be bluffin here a decent %

I'm calling here always. His sizing is scary, but its conceivable he's either bluffing or even value towning himself with AA/AK and using a big size to make it look bluffy.

pre I only call vs. very fishy, loose passive or loose/bad players. Vs. 80% players I muck. and you can only call pre with a plan to bluff raise flops/turns a fair amount


his line looks exactly like 444, 888, or KQ, possibly AA or AK. He can have some random bluffs mixed in, considering the K is a great DB card. I think a lot of his nut hands will make a small turn bet on a scare card to 'keep you in there' and then make a larger river value bet. I'd expect his bluffs to bet turn bigger, and river smaller.

id call getting 2-1, but not particularly like it. I don't find this sizing to be a bluff except against some thinking players

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Originally Posted by mcatdog

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Originally Posted by Marshall28

Against a competent opponent I think you are beat here pretty often. I'd expect to see a set that was trying to induce a raise from you on the turn that now is just betting for value on the river. If he's thinking it all, he can really only expect you to fold like AQ/QJ here, and if he wanted you to fold those, he would have bet bigger on the turn.

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I agree somewhat but I've seen people size their bets like this with draws betting small on the turn and then huge when they miss. I've also seen people get scared of this type of turn card with AA/AK but when you check-call and don't raise they decide they're good and bomb the river. I'd sigh and call.

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what draws can he have, or were you just making that comment in general? I see this bet sizing but in totally different spots. I read his sizing the opposite way

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Originally Posted by mixchange

his line looks exactly like 444, 888, or KQ, possibly AA or AK

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Wouldn't 44/88/KQ bet more on the turn, and not leave so much behind for the river?

And I also notice no-one includes AQ in his range here - is that because you don't think he would overbet the river having been called on the turn with a K on the board?

nah it's because people rarely bet AQ on the turn