Flop the nut flush, turn and river pair the board

In this hand I limped in from late position with a suited ace and flopped the nut flush. I had only been at the table for about 10 hands, so no real reads yet. The BB bet into me on the flop, and my thinking at the time was that I should try to string him along and extract as much money as possible. However, the turn and river cards each paired the board, which left me unsure of how to proceed.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (9 handed) -

MP2 ($9.85)
MP3 ($7.35)
Hero (CO) ($8.65)
Button ($6.40)
SB ($5)
BB ($3.10)
UTG ($1.85)
UTG+1 ($4.30)
MP1 ($1.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
4 folds, MP3 calls $0.10, Hero calls $0.10, 1 fold, SB calls $0.05, BB checks

Flop: ($0.40) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif (4 players)
SB checks, BB bets $0.30, 1 fold, Hero calls $0.30, 1 fold

Turn: ($1) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
BB bets $0.40, Hero calls $0.40

River: ($1.80) Qhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB bets $0.80, Hero: ???

How should I have played this? Should I have raised big on the turn?

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Originally Posted by flyingtriangle

However, the turn and river cards each paired the board, which left me unsure of how to proceed.

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I think you played it pretty well. You may be beat, but you also want to keep worse hands in, so I think it's ok to just call it down. As played, call the River.

Others will probably advise you stack off here and they may be right.

raise flop
raise turn
raise river

i'm not folding to any 30 bb short stacker with a hand that strong

Problem with this is that everyone limped in, so you have no intel on the BB, he could have anything. Thats the problem with limping in, therefore I try to avoid it.
However, I would of raised the flop. He bet into you showing some strength. He could easily have 2 diamonds just like you and flopped a flush. But yours is better. Make him pay.
If he then called you down then went crazy on the river you know hes probably playing Qx and caught the FH.
As played I'm calling him down.

I would have raised to $1 on the flop, based solely on the fact that you're looking to get it all in here and (as you've shown) you can't do it by flatting down every street. Start early, it makes everything sooo much easier.

at these limits i don't think it's terrible to flat flop. a lot of players are scared by monotone flops, but the fear diminishes on each street. a raise will very very often fold out anything but sets and maybe two pairs. even if the board pairs on the turn you're still in betting mode 'cause you've only let 7 hands suck out on you. not saying it's the best available play but depending on the opponent (how often he'll bet the turn w ATC and so forth), there is a line of thought that could support the play.

the turn flat IS terrible. the bet is <1/2 PSB, which isn't getting you nearly enough value. i'm raising this and stacking off w a smile on my face. the 7 hands that beat you are VASTLY outnumbered by all the two diamond/two pair/trips garbage that you dominate considering it's a limped pot

edit: oops, there are 19 hands that could have you beat with the two pairs sucking out on you. the more hands like Q7 and 97 you're willing to add to his range, though, the more garbage trips we can add to his range, so i'm still stacking off here

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Originally Posted by AFchung

raise flop
raise turn
raise river

i'm not folding to any 30 bb short stacker with a hand that strong

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The only thing we can beat on the river is a pair of 8's, right?

This is why limping Axs sucks - it puts you in difficult spots. Villain knows the flush is out there and doesn't care. With 2 pair on the board, it's probably time to c/c or c/f the river. We're almost never ahead here. We will only ever win small pots here, and risk losing a big one.

im raising flop, turn and c/c the river. i don't like to slow play if the villain is pushing money out there. i slow play to induce this so if he's doing it on his own i'm looking to get sucked out on.

Am I the only one who thinks we should fold on the river? Again, the only thing we beat is a pair of 8's, right?

River fold here isn't bad, but you put yourself in a bad place. This is $10 NL with multiple limpers, someone will have a decent enough hand to continue even if it's just the Kd. Don't be afraid to raise it up, it doesn't have to put them out, but in the end you're here to make money and letting him bet pennies just so you can win is not giving your nut flush justice. If you have ultimate nuts you can slowplay the hell out of it, but when the board pairs you don't have the ultimate nuts anymore. Either make him pay to see the next card (and lots of people will do this), or finish the hand while you can still win it.

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Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

River fold here isn't bad, but you put yourself in a bad place. This is $10 NL with multiple limpers, someone will have a decent enough hand to continue even if it's just the Kd. Don't be afraid to raise it up, it doesn't have to put them out, but in the end you're here to make money and letting him bet pennies just so you can win is not giving your nut flush justice. If you have ultimate nuts you can slowplay the hell out of it, but when the board pairs you don't have the ultimate nuts anymore. Either make him pay to see the next card (and lots of people will do this), or finish the hand while you can still win it.

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I totally agree with this. Players need to understand that a full house is a "draw" on the nut flush, and like any draw, you are taking a chance when you don't price it correctly.

But once we get to the river, however we bet the earlier streets, I have to think that if Villain leads out his range is likely to crush us (absent a read). Am I wrong?

just raise the flop and jam the turn, someone who cannot afford to buy-in full at $10nl isn't about to fold anything here ever

Nice photo, spenda. The Spurs looked good last night!

Raising the flop/turn his whole stack would have been already in leaving you not having to wonder about the river. On the flop I think any lower flush, Qx, 7x, 8x, K/J flush draw calls a raise here. Any other hands besides these prob won't be stacking off anyway so it doesn't matter too much.

As played, I guess shove then kick yourself for not getting the money in when you were ahead.....IDK.

You flopped the nuts, so you want to get his $5. By calling his bets, you let him control the pot size. Raising on the flop does have quite a risk of making him play correctly. ie folding, though just calling does make it harder to get his whole stack. I think I would have called.

Q7, 87, 88 are unlikely and QQ, 77 are very unlikely, so the 7 is a bad card more because if you raise, he's going to fear you just made trips. But now a 7, 8 or Q on the river are all scare cards, so I would raise. If you raised the turn to $2, then the pot will be $5 on the river and barring any accidents, you can make a $3 bet to claim the rest of his stack.

Unfortunately there was a nasty accident with the Q on the river. You are beating a lower flush, a pair of 8s or something completely weird like XhX, 44 or T9. As played, I would fold on the river.

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Originally Posted by LawDude

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Originally Posted by AFchung

raise flop
raise turn
raise river

i'm not folding to any 30 bb short stacker with a hand that strong

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The only thing we can beat on the river is a pair of 8's, right?

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by raising on earlier streets our money will be in before we see the river so it doesn't matter

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Originally Posted by AFchung

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Originally Posted by LawDude

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Originally Posted by AFchung

raise flop
raise turn
raise river

i'm not folding to any 30 bb short stacker with a hand that strong

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The only thing we can beat on the river is a pair of 8's, right?

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by raising on earlier streets our money will be in before we see the river so it doesn't matter

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Again, I totally agree with this. I am just saying that if we get to the river and we aren't all-in yet, and the Villain leads out, at that point we should fold unless we have a good read to the contrary, because Villain's range for that lead out crushes us.

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Originally Posted by LawDude

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Originally Posted by AFchung

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LawDude

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Originally Posted by AFchung

raise flop
raise turn
raise river

i'm not folding to any 30 bb short stacker with a hand that strong

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The only thing we can beat on the river is a pair of 8's, right?

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by raising on earlier streets our money will be in before we see the river so it doesn't matter

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Again, I totally agree with this. I am just saying that if we get to the river and we aren't all-in yet, and the Villain leads out, at that point we should fold unless we have a good read to the contrary, because Villain's range for that lead out crushes us.

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This is almost true - still depends on the exact range we estimate and the amount left to lead.