Bet sizing: spenda, stacks, my poker parents.

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04-19-2009, 12:35 PM
wonderland

Bet sizing: spenda, stacks, my poker parents.

lol...

I'm not inferring anything here but i think spenda is the angry dad who comes home and gets told junior has been naughty. Stacks is of the more gentle maternal role (while still firm tho).

So, i genuinely and actually want to ask a genuine sensible specific question here, so dad please don't take your belt off.

But i've been watching some vids one one hand (dad) and posting hands on the other (mom). On the vids side of things, spenda you argue for betting 3x from the button but this seems to be the exception to the 4x rule. So i just wanted to know if there's PFR rule we all agree on or... ?

Secondly, i've recently been betting almost full pot for my cbet and i thiiiink this may be where i'm going wrong. So please answer this well.

Scenario: http://weaktight.com/1010082

So flop, is my bet sizing good here? Spenda i guess you'd bet 0.30c?

Turn bet?

Spenda you mention about playing 'pot control' poker so i wonder if this is it, where you don't build a pot unless you're very sure you have them?

Thing is, lately i've been wiped out time and again be sets when i have TPTK, i think for the first 15k hands of poker this hardly EVER happened, now it's almost common, so i never know (after a decent call or two) when to stop.

Oh, off topic, broke my cherry today:
http://weaktight.com/1010073
04-19-2009, 01:35 PM
AFchung

Quote:

Stacks is of the more gentle maternal role (while still firm tho).

stacks you gotta rebuld your rep you sissy

we don't pot control top pair good kicker on somewhat drawy boards. usually we pot control hands like 2nd pair which have showdown value but you dont want to get too much money in

turn raises on a blank card are suspicious as hell. i like the fold
04-19-2009, 01:55 PM
wonderland

Quote:

stacks you gotta rebuld your rep you sissy

shhh, don't goad him, we need balance from our poker parents, yin and yang.

*pulls back on track* ok, back to discussion pleez.
04-19-2009, 01:59 PM
Illfavor

Good to know Stax has some folks to coddle his balls for him. *ahem*M2M*ahem*wonderland*ahem*.

H1- I guess you could be a little less on the flop but I like it.
04-19-2009, 02:31 PM
wonderland

Quote:

Good to know Stax has some folks to coddle his balls for him

there exists a certain humble guru/disciple relationship in such an arena as the poker community, we're like a little family, all hating eachother yet offering to help.

One must reserve SUM respect for the 'poker grown ups'.

So, sweat me and there's a ball cuddling in it for you.

TACTIC UPDATE: *fanfare*
I've decided to play one table at a time for a bit. Getting soul reads on players and taking my time with decisions. Feels a lot more calm than just throwing chips *fuck, go away* at someone while you just go dealt KK on the other table and have an open ender on the other.
04-19-2009, 02:35 PM
sil693

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderland

i've recently been betting almost full pot for my cbet

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderland

Spenda i guess you'd bet 0.30c?

what are the advantages and disadvantages of cbetting pot or betting $0.30 in the hand in question?

take this one step further, what are the advantages / disadvantages of cbetting pot or betting around 3/4 pot in general (ie. in any given situation)?
04-19-2009, 03:47 PM
Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Good to know Stax has some folks to coddle his balls for him. *ahem*M2M*ahem*wonderland*ahem*.

H1- I guess you could be a little less on the flop but I like it.

ok im fine with heads up for rolls.
04-19-2009, 04:30 PM
daven

slam the river with the straight flush cos it makes a better story if you stack the fish. Also, why aren't you raising this flop?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderland

spenda you argue for betting 3x from the button but this seems to be the exception to the 4x rule. So i just wanted to know if there's PFR rule we all agree on or... ?

the 4x rule is a nice guideline to start from. But there are always exceptions...

opening for more UTG
pros -
your range is stronger, and you want to build bigger pots while your range is strong
less likely to go multi(>3)-way to the flop, your UTG range is not good multi-way oop
cons -
you build a bigger pot out of position

opening for less from the button
pros -
makes blind 3-betting against you less profitable
will work just as well as a steal vs auto-folds
has to work less often to show a long-term profit from stealing
disguises your monsters on the button
your range is weaker so why not have a smaller pot
allows you to widen your button range even further
cons -
you may start getting 3-bet light - which is only a bad thing if you don't know how to deal with it...

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderland

i've recently been betting almost full pot for my cbet

depends. I c-bet less than pot most of the time. Opponent dependent (i.e. reaction to cbet stats dependent! + general tendencies). I distinguish c-betting with a made hand from c-betting with a draw from c-betting air. The posted hand is fine pre-flop and flop. Turn, not sure without reads - if you think there is a good chance you are behind then check is fine. Fold is pretty standard as played
04-19-2009, 04:37 PM
Illfavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Good to know Stax has some folks to coddle his balls for him. *ahem*M2M*ahem*wonderland*ahem*.

H1- I guess you could be a little less on the flop but I like it.

ok im fine with heads up for rolls.

Pick a time sir.

I mean all I have to do is like have a hand once and town you, Mr. Station...

Nvm. I never ever have a hand.
04-19-2009, 04:38 PM
Micro2Macro

5pm eastern?
how much money?
shall we get an escrew and play the stars play money tables?
you can set the stack sizes if you're uncomfortable playing deep.
04-19-2009, 04:45 PM
Illfavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

5pm eastern?
how much money?
shall we get an escrew and play the stars play money tables?
you can set the stack sizes if you're uncomfortable playing deep.

I'm can't tell if you're joking or not, but I'll stop this before it escalates to anything :roll:
04-19-2009, 04:48 PM
Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

5pm eastern?
how much money?
shall we get an escrew and play the stars play money tables?
you can set the stack sizes if you're uncomfortable playing deep.

I'm can't tell if you're joking or not, but I'll stop this before it escalates to anything :roll:

5K no limit good?
04-19-2009, 04:53 PM
Illfavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

5K no limit good?

You'd have to borrow some cash from your mod/mancrush/friend. I mean you said 'I love you' to a boy.
04-19-2009, 04:55 PM
Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by Illfavor

Quote:

Originally Posted by Micro2Macro

5K no limit good?

You'd have to borrow some cash from your mod/mancrush/friend. I mean you said 'I love you' to a boy.

but I wrote 'no homo' below, that changes the meaning.

still following hand charts?
04-19-2009, 05:26 PM
wonderland

FOR THE LOVE OF CHRIST! shhhh!

Quote:

take this one step further, what are the advantages / disadvantages of cbetting pot or betting around 3/4 pot in general (ie. in any given situation)?

That's more like it, wow, imagine if most replies were this educational in their flavour.

well, i guess what daven said :)

i was gonna say maybe just one of those things, that we build less of a pot, so what are the advantages of building less of a pot. Well, for me, against stations, they tend to call and hit the turn a LOT, so the question then is... should we bet MORE to make stations fuck off, less to value town them or more to value town them, or less so that WHEN (not if) they flat us and no scare cards come up, we can continue more confidently and perhaps even stack them. See, i have no idea what the hell i'm saying.

60/10 fish own me at this stake currently. I think i see their stats (have PT3 HUD running beeeutifully now) i go YES! fish! but then hand them my ass coz i haven't learned exatly how to play them.
04-19-2009, 05:35 PM
Stacks

My thoughts on betsizing in a nutshell.

Preflop
What: I raise 4xbb + 1bb per limper from UTG - HJ. I then raise 3xbb + 1bb per limper from CO and BU. This is at a FR table. As the tables grow smaller and there are fewer players, then I gravitate towards using 3xbb + 1bb per limper as my standard raise size from everything.

Why: The reasoning I use behind this basically comes back to my range. In UTG - HJ, I'm going to be playing a much tighter range than I am from CO/BU. It stands to reason that since I'm playing a much tighter range, that I profit more by building a larger pot quicker, because my range is stronger. Also, in many cases from those positions I am going to see a flop and be OOP. I guess you could argue that when OOP you may want to keep the pot smaller. However, when I open from UTG I also have to consider the number of villains that will face my raise. If one calls, then the next villain is getting better pot odds to make a call, and so on. While 1 big blind more doesn't make a huge difference, it does play into my logic here.

Conclusion: With a weaker range, I believe you benefit from keeping the pot smaller. Since you have a weaker range in LP, it stands that you should be raising a smaller amount on average from LP.

Postflop
What: There really isn't a standard for betsizing postflop. However, the betsizing you decide to use should be based on numerous factors that you must account for. You need to factor in board texture, villain, your range, his range, your purpose for betting, among other things.

For instance, using your KQ hand as an example. I would bet a little less on the flop. My reasoning would be that the majority of the range that villain has that I'm trying to get value from would be smaller PPs, or 2nd pairs, or weaker Kings. There isn't too many turn cards I'm terribly afraid of as the board is pretty dry. I don't mind betting a little less here to string him along on future streets. On the turn, while it's dependent on villain, I think the majority of the hands your trying to get value from are not likely to call your turn bet. I think you would benefit here from either betting a bit smaller, or checking. However, that's my biased FR opinion.

Conclusion: I can't tell you any sort of standard postflop bet sizing to use. It is all dependent. Start asking yourself which questions you should begin to consider postflop that will lead to a more appropriate bet size.

You should read the two articles by ISF regarding "Strategic Betszing" and "Manipulation 202 and Questions". He explains this all better than I can at this time.

http://poker-strategy.flopturnriver....y-Articles.php
04-19-2009, 05:40 PM
Stacks

Playing against calling stations is relatively easy. You play a wider range of hands when in position against them preflop. Hands like KJ, KT, QJ, QT, K9, etc go up in value as they are now likely ahead of villains limp/calling ranges. So you should be trying to isolate with a wide range of hands. When you make a hand you should be betting to get value from their terribly wide range. When you miss, you should likely shut down in most instances. It goes back to simple theory. If I'm playing against you, and you are calling 100% of cbets. It makes absolutely no sense for me to cbet when I miss. That is, until you adjust and realize that I am only cbetting when I hit, and check/folding or checking behind when I miss. Well, the thing about fish is they don't understand the adjustment part, and therefore do not adjust, and they also don't exploit you for doing this.

And for god's sake quit using things like "they call a lot and seem to hit a lot" as your logic for making a decision or not.
04-19-2009, 07:28 PM
Ragnar4

Grats on the Royal flush.

But why the hell weren't you raising that flop?
04-19-2009, 10:00 PM
PlayToWin

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Since you have a weaker range in LP, it stands that you should be raising a smaller amount on average from LP.

Do you still raise small when you have cards from the top of your range in LP (AK, AQ, KQ)?
04-19-2009, 10:33 PM
Stacks

Quote:

Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Quote:

Originally Posted by XxStacksxX

Since you have a weaker range in LP, it stands that you should be raising a smaller amount on average from LP.

Do you still raise small when you have cards from the top of your range in LP (AK, AQ, KQ)?

Yes in most cases.
04-20-2009, 04:04 AM
wonderland

Thanks for all that Stacks, lots to digest there. I think i realised that i've been very unclear as to why i'm betting in the first place!

I usually bet the flop because i want the other person to fold, i never welcome calls even when i feel i'm ahead because a) don't want to get sucked out on and b) i don't feel confident on later streets. Like if i see 2 flush cards and i bet and they call and a third comes down, i'm convinced they have it.

That ISF post will keep me going for a while!

Code:

But why the hell weren't you raising that flop?

Should i? i see spenda doing that so he can get a free river card, is that why i'd raise? i think he'd fold to a raise there, i'd like to see more cards in that incident coz i could make a lot of nuts hands.
04-20-2009, 04:46 AM
Micro2Macro

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderland

I usually bet the flop because i want the other person to fold, i never welcome calls even when i feel i'm ahead because a) don't want to get sucked out on and b) i don't feel confident on later streets. Like if i see 2 flush cards and i bet and they call and a third comes down, i'm convinced they have it.

for a) this thinking is wrong. if someone has a draw and is getting incorrect odds to call, you want them to call because you gain from their incorrect call.

for b) this is likely because you haven't been bet/folding enough. you see a scare card and do one of 2 things: 1) convince yourself that they have it and c/f to any bet or 2) convince yourself they don't have it 'this time' and b/c if raised. bet/fold some!
04-20-2009, 05:02 AM
Keith

Quote:

Originally Posted by wonderland

Code:

But why the hell weren't you raising that flop?

Should i? i see spenda doing that so he can get a free river card, is that why i'd raise? i think he'd fold to a raise there, i'd like to see more cards in that incident coz i could make a lot of nuts hands.

you had 9 flush outs + 3 tens so ~48% likely to hit the straight or the flush by the river so definately worth starting to build the pot before a flush card comes to kill your action.