2NL Hands

Villlian running 74/24/2.6
He opened for 3x which could mean a small pocket pair. I figured I was probably ahead here on the flop plus I had a gutshot str8 draw. If he was a calling station or on a draw, I thought it best to keep betting. His River minraise may be a flush bluff or does does it mean I'm beat?

Hand #1
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Button ($1.71)
SB ($2.83)
Hero (BB) ($2.84)
UTG ($3.37)
MP ($4.74)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif
1 fold, MP bets $0.06, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.04

Flop: ($0.13) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.10, MP calls $0.10

Turn: ($0.33) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.20, MP calls $0.20

River: ($0.73) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
Hero bets $0.24, MP raises to $0.50, Hero ???

Total pot: $1.73 | Rake: $0.05
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Hand 2
Villians were 21/8/6 (24 hands) and 48/21/1.7 (100 hands)

I'll post the results of this in my op, but respond here before you go look. I will say that I made the call. Was that stupid? I thought about it for a while. My reasoning was that both villians were AI and to call was only half a buy-in.

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (6 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (BB) ($2.91)
UTG ($1.11)
MP ($1.08)
CO ($4.13)
Button ($1.80)
SB ($2.92)

Preflop: Hero is BB with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
UTG bets $1.11 (All-In), MP calls $1.08 (All-In), 3 folds, Hero calls $1.09
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Hand 3
I flopped the nuts. What's the best way to play this with only one caller?
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $0.02 BB (5 handed) - Poker-Stars Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (MP) ($4.71)
Button ($5.77)
SB ($5.01)
BB ($2.19)
UTG ($0.21)

Preflop: Hero is MP with Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
1 fold, Hero bets $0.08, 2 folds, BB calls $0.06

Flop: ($0.17) Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero checks

Turn: ($0.17) 8http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif (2 players)
BB checks, Hero bets $0.10, 1 fold :?

Total pot: $0.17 | Rake: $0

Hand one. Hero calls the river

Hand Two. What do you open shove with? What hands would you do that with? What hands would you call an open shove with if you were in MP's position?
You have 2 potential big hands Going to war and one probably has you dominated.

Hand 3. 2/3rd pot bet on the flop pls. Players aren't smart enough to fall prey to the slow play.

Hand 1: 3bet pre please against a 74/26 and make it huge.
Hand 2: Probably fold, if he's only raising 8% of hands and he shoves UTG what do you think that means?
Hand 3: Just cbet the flop, your range for cbetting this flop should be much wider than your range for checking behind.

hand 1: do you think you have at least 1/6 of a chance of winning?

hand 2: without better reads i'd prolly pick a better spot to get these two donks (which they are based on their stats)

hand 3: you should be playing aggressive enough so that a check on the flop is more suspiscious than a bet. if he even touched this flop he's calling and in many cases raising. as played bet much bigger on turn

Hand 1: First, I would raise pre-flop, although I could see calling here if you think it's the only way you're going to get any action. Still, out of position I feel like calling is a weak play.

Second, the bet on the turn seems too small to me, as you're not really getting any information about his hand when he calls. I would bet at least 1 - 1.5x the pot here.

On the river, I guess a flush is possible, but based on the way the hand played out it's really tough for me to say what he might have. I think there's a chance he's simply put you on a weak hand and is thinking you'll fold to a little pressure. I would call and hope for the best.

Hand 2: Seems like an OK play to me. At these stakes, it's pretty likely that both of these guys have moved with something less than AA or KK, and one of them might even be in there with KQ, AQ, or worse, so you're probably getting the right odds to call.

Hand 3: This is probably one of those hands where there was no way the guy was going to put any more money in after the flop.

BTW, pocket kings would have made the nuts. you actually flopped the 2nd nuts..

Hand 1. With this guys stats he could have anything. Seems to me he probably played random suited cards and called down to flush the river. I would of 3bet preflop. As played, I call the river.

Hand 2. I'm folding here. I'd believe that one of these guys shoved with something less than premium, but probably not both. I'd wait for something better to develop and take them then.

Hand 3. At this level don't bother slow playing, make a standard c-bet on the flop and hope he sees it. However they most likely would of folded anyway, it happens, get on with the next hand.

Hand one could go either way. With such a loose villain, you're probably ahead here a lot of the time. On the other hand, it's a really wet board and I tend to think you could find a better spot to make a move.

For hand two, I'm not a big fan of shoving or calling shoves with ace-king. Sure, if you're not up against aces or kings, you're never a big dog, but it's not a made hand and odds are you're behind or just a marginal favorite. Why not play some poker? If you have proof that someone is habitually shoving with weak hands like KQ or KJ or even air, then maybe calling is a good move, but I don't think you have that read here and such villains are pretty rare. In tournaments when you reach certain inflection points, shoving or calling shoves with ace-king can be a good move because moves have to be made, but don't forget that you're playing a CASH game where there is no pressure to ever make such moves.

I would have led out a small five cent bet on the flop of hand three. There's a good chance you wouldn't be able to extract money no matter what you did, but I think a weak flop lead gives you a good chance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jason

I would have led out a small five cent bet on the flop of hand three. There's a good chance you wouldn't be able to extract money no matter what you did, but I think a weak flop lead gives you a good chance.

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god i disagree with this. at these stakes i see all of these lesser hands calling a flop bet here (and most of them calling a turn bet too): AJ (8), AQ (16), AK (12, yes people flat PF this ALL THE TIME), AT (16), bare with me i'm only on the hands that have aces in them......KQ or other garbage suited kings and such (20-25), QJ (8, and need i point out that we want this guy's stack in on the flop?), QT (16, this is disastrous if we don't price this guy on the flop)......so on and so forth small PP's and SC's are just about the only hands that don't continue here, again at THESE stakes, and ESPECIALLY if you're purporting a loose image

Generally I agree with you that people will call you down at these stakes, however, for THIS particular hand and villain with the knowledge of how the hand played out, I think there's a good chance the result would not have changed with a flop bet. The 8 of clubs on the turn was a basically a rag, so if villain folds there, he will probably fold the flop. However, IF he will put more money in the pot, I DO think a smaller flop lead out gives us a better chance because most players wouldn't expect someone with a great hand to lead out. They would more likely suspect a check flop and bet turn line to be indicative of the better hand.

you're talking like when OPer was playing the hand he KNEW that a rag was going to come on the turn and that he KNEW that the villain was going to fold to any bet, but uhhhh we're playing poker. you're right (but wholly irrelevant) in saying that the result would not have been any different if he bet the flop but who the fuck cares?! i care about EV and betting the flop is def more EV as far as i see it

I am less concerned with how the hands were played than I am with the thought process. You need to start thinking more in ranges and maximize accordingly.

Hand 1: What's his range here? What's my equity vs his range here? Does it benefit me to get more money in preflop against that range? Will he call with worse hands preflop? Just putting him on a pocket pair with his vpip is pretty ridiculous. I would be looking to get all my money in here 100% of the time either preflop or on that board. If he has KQ or two-pair, oh well.. we move on knowing we made money on the hand long term.

Hand 2: Whether its half a buy-in or 6 buy-ins.. do we expect calling two all-ins to be profitable ever with a drawing hand like AK? Even against two random hands you are like 47% equity.. so you win 47% of the time, and lose 53%.. does that make us money long term?

Hand 3: if we aren't going to bet the flop, we might as well not bet until the river. The 8 certainly isn't going to suddenly make him call a bet without a J or a K.. so unless he has exactly 88, the hand is over anyways. And if he does have 88, he'll get it all in for you. Depending on his AF, I almost always c-bet this flop. He might float with 1010, A10/AQ, Q10 etc for one street.. so since we know there are hands that call, we need to bet. Hell, sometimes he might even raise the flop with air thinking you would never bet a J here (simply because he wouldn't) Donk mentality.

Outlaw, agree with your assessments, just one minor point of clarification on #2.

In the hypothetical case referenced of AKo vs. 2 random ATC @ 47% (didn't check the math).

47% equity in a 3-way pot would make us ALOT of money and be very EV+ long term.

That's obviously not the case in the specific hand OP laid out as villains are repping pretty strong hands (not ATC). Just wanted to set the record straight on the hypothetical.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Outlaw

Hand 1: I would be looking to get all my money in here 100% of the time either preflop or on that board. If he has KQ or two-pair, oh well.. we move on knowing we made money on the hand long term.

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I don't see how "getting it all in 100% of the time" with AKo preflop is gonna make money long term. We're behind any pocket pair. If you like AI PF, then you should love my call in hand 2, right? And post-flop, why stack off with TPTK? I thought that was generally a bad idea.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Outlaw

Hand 2: Whether its half a buy-in or 6 buy-ins.. do we expect calling two all-ins to be profitable ever with a drawing hand like AK?

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Based on most of the responses, this isn't a good plan without much better reads.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Outlaw

Hand 3: if we aren't going to bet the flop, we might as well not bet until the river.

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Yea, I usually wait till the river to give him a chance to hit and disguise my hand. It's worked brilliantly a few times. I misplayed this.

Thanks for all the responses. I'm posting hand 2 in my Op. (click the sig banner)

In hand 1 I'd bet 50 cents like a man and fold to a minraise
now that you bet .24 it just makes it shitty for you because when he has it he can raise it small and you feel like you have to call because you "enduced a bluff" or something and when he has a TPNK he gets off east by calling a small bet when he would be faced with a more difficult decision otherwise

hand 2: your reasoning is dumb
if your reasoning would be "I know the 21/8 guy may have QQ+,AK the other guy's overcall makes my equity above 33%" I'd let you off easy
btw:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.644% 33.59% 09.05% 5436914652 1465372086.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 22.527% 12.59% 09.94% 2037635688 1608506124.00 { AKo }
Hand 2: 34.829% 32.22% 02.61% 5215451424 421983258.00 { 88+, AJs+, AQo+ }

it looks pretty bad without reads

hand 3. I bet this flop no matter what I have pretty much unless I opened with like KTs and decide to check it back

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

In hand 1 I'd bet 50 cents like a man and fold to a minraise
now that you bet .24 it just makes it shitty for you because when he has it he can raise it small and you feel like you have to call because you "enduced a bluff" or something and when he has a TPNK he gets off east by calling a small bet when he would be faced with a more difficult decision otherwise

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That sounds like a much better approach to the hand. Thanks.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

hand 2: your reasoning is dumb
if your reasoning would be "I know the 21/8 guy may have QQ+,AK the other guy's overcall makes my equity above 33%" I'd let you off easy
btw:
equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 42.644% 33.59% 09.05% 5436914652 1465372086.00 { QQ+, AKs, AKo }
Hand 1: 22.527% 12.59% 09.94% 2037635688 1608506124.00 { AKo }
Hand 2: 34.829% 32.22% 02.61% 5215451424 421983258.00 { 88+, AJs+, AQo+ }

it looks pretty bad without reads

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Thanks for working this out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

hand 3. I bet this flop no matter what I have pretty much unless I opened with like KTs and decide to check it back

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I should have been more clear in my answer above. I agree that betting the flop is always better. The 2nd option would be waiting till the River. I totally messed it up by betting the turn.

no, if you check the flop bet the turn
how are you going to get all in if you wait until the river?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

no, if you check the flop bet the turn
how are you going to get all in if you wait until the river?

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OK, if I screw up and don't bet the flop (which I should) then, since villian is checking every street, the only possible way to get it AI is to wait for him to hit the River and make a bet. Without betting the flop, I don't think the money gets AI, but at least there's a better chance of getting a call on the River. I could be wrong.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

no, if you check the flop bet the turn
how are you going to get all in if you wait until the river?

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OK, if I screw up and don't bet the flop (which I should) then, since villian is checking every street, the only possible way to get it AI is to wait for him to hit the River and make a bet. Without betting the flop, I don't think the money gets AI, but at least there's a better chance of getting a call on the River. I could be wrong.

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the pot is 16 cents

how are you going to bet $2 into 16 cents

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

the pot is 16 cents. how are you going to bet $2 into 16 cents

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Like I said, it's probably not gonna happen.

Sklansky says it's ok to give a free card if the pot is small, you have a monster hand, and you figure to gain more in future bets through deception.

You forced me to open up a can of Sklansky, lol. I try to slowplay only with a monster hand. If there had been two or more callers, I would have bet the flop. I will probably always bet the flop in the future, but there has to be a page in the playbook for a slowplay. I'm gonna go play me some poker now.

there is. if your full house is 8's full of 7's instead, then you're likely folded to if you cbet. here everything in his range his calling except small PP's and SC's, so bet away

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Sklansky says it's ok to give a free card if the pot is small, you have a monster hand, and you figure to gain more in future bets through deception.

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yeah, in limit where if you wait until the turn the bet doubles

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iopq

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PlayToWin

Sklansky says it's ok to give a free card if the pot is small, you have a monster hand, and you figure to gain more in future bets through deception.

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yeah, in limit where if you wait until the turn the bet doubles

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", this situation occurs most often in pot-limit or no-limit games. (Chapt. 10, pg. 81)

so how do you figure to get more in future bets?

ok if he has a gutshot and you let him hit it you'll gain more which is hands like T9
but if he has a hand worth calling a bet with you'll gain less because now you're dependent on him getting his hand on the river before you get any bets
which is hands like AQ, QT that will call a flop anyway

and if he has a king you'll definitely get less money if you have him bet into you than if you bet into him

it would apply more if there weren't draws that he could pay you off with
you could bet modestly like 1/2 pot which is what I do on paired boards anyway