Flopped set on Two Toned board, behind bet and raise

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04-14-2009, 10:07 PM
surviva316

Flopped set on Two Toned board, behind bet and raise

I know that this is a pretty standard dream situation, but maximizing value seems tricky to me here (and i've been in it quite a few times, especially in tourneys).

the person who lead is 50/7 over 40 hands.

Full Tilt Pot-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed) - Full-Tilt Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

Hero (Button) ($19.85)
SB ($9.58)
BB ($10.41)
UTG ($25.24)
MP ($33.67)
CO ($6.85)

Preflop: Hero is Button with http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/ts.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/th.gif
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, CO bets $0.32, Hero calls $0.32, 1 fold, BB calls $0.22, UTG calls $0.22, MP calls $0.22

Flop: ($1.65) http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/7c.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/td.gif, http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/.../smiles/qd.gif (5 players)
BB checks, UTG checks, MP bets $0.80, CO raises to $4.05, Hero??

reraising seems obvious with flush and straight possibilities on the board, but the problem is that i'm not getting hardly anymore value out of the raiser, and might be accomplishing little more than scaring anyone else out of the hand. the way i see it i feel like raising this to thirteen or so is pretty much equivelant to not having the CO in the hand and just raising the .80 bet to thirteen dollars, which is obviously just blowin' value away from the hand. any clarification would be appreciated
04-14-2009, 11:09 PM
connectthesuitors

Raise, raise, raise and pray he doesn't have QQ. Can't afford to get fancy with the size of the pot and the board texture.
04-14-2009, 11:14 PM
Micro2Macro

Re: Flopped set on Two Toned board, behind bet and raise

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

reraising seems obvious with flush and straight possibilities on the board, but the problem is that i'm not getting hardly anymore value out of the raiser, and might be accomplishing little more than scaring anyone else out of the hand. the way i see it i feel like raising this to thirteen or so is pretty much equivelant to not having the CO in the hand and just raising the .80 bet to thirteen dollars, which is obviously just blowin' value away from the hand. any clarification would be appreciated

wat

raise

but think about how bad calling is before you raise, that way you understand why
04-14-2009, 11:48 PM
tyrn

Re: Flopped set on Two Toned board, behind bet and raise

Quote:

Originally Posted by surviva316

reraising seems obvious with flush and straight possibilities on the board, but the problem is that i'm not getting hardly anymore value out of the raiser, and might be accomplishing little more than scaring anyone else out of the hand. the way i see it i feel like raising this to thirteen or so is pretty much equivelant to not having the CO in the hand and just raising the .80 bet to thirteen dollars, which is obviously just blowin' value away from the hand. any clarification would be appreciated

Not quite so, because he quadrupled the pot size. If you only called, the next person would have to call $4.05 to win a $10.55 pot, almost 3:1, which is no where close to you betting $13 into a $2 pot. If you raised to $10, the next person would have to call $10 into a $16 pot. However, with stack sizes, I don't think anyone on a draw is calling that.

I'm not sure whats best. If you just call you're passing on marginal odds for a drawing hand to call, but you're also getting value when the turn bricks. The value of course depends on how many people actually end up calling, but I think that even with only 1 person calling, as long as 50% of the cards that can fall are bricks you're fine only calling.

Edit: On second thought, the above seems wrong, because you could justify betting any size vs draws then, which obviously isn't right. I think you just have to look at it like a $6.50 pot. Min raise is a little more than $7, which is closer to pot than $4.05, so maybe min raise? I'm lost on this hand too, take this post with a grain of salt.
04-15-2009, 05:01 AM

shove
a donk will show up with a queen
04-15-2009, 08:36 AM
dtamburin

I'm raising all in here. I want to punish the draws and put the CO all in. I'm not taking any chances.
04-15-2009, 08:51 AM
texa8

get it in and stack the CO, you cant be complaining about not getting enough value there...

as mentioned i wouldnt be trying to get too cute on this board.
04-15-2009, 08:53 AM
WillburForce

Shove it. MP is likely to go crazy with a Q and will almost certainly call with a flush draw. aything he folds to a shove, he would fold to a proper raise anywhos. And calling is outright retarded.

Just get it in.
04-15-2009, 08:54 AM
Hoopy

Ship it in, you crush everything but QQ and so often people will play top pair like its the nuts, plus you will give flush draws the wrong price to draw.
04-15-2009, 10:12 AM
Vinland

Agreed. This is a nice pot to win....don't worry about not quadrupling up or something like that.
Shove it in and make it a mistake for the others to call. The CO is probably scared of the flush hence why he shoved so if one of the others has a FD, punish them for sticking around. The chances are too high in a multiway pot that the BB or UTG is suited...
They both checked so they either are dead (in which case you werent making any $$ off of them) or they are drawing to the flush.
04-15-2009, 10:22 AM
STHollywood

id just like to point out here that although it is obvious now via all of these replies that you should be trying to get it in, it is great that you are trying to analyze hands this deeply. The thing is though, do not get fancy play syndrome at .10 NL. I know it sounds boring, but you can make money playing ABC poker at micro stakes. But, keep analyzing and learn as you go. There will be a time and place for flatting sets (maybe), but this is not it.
04-15-2009, 12:58 PM
surviva316

ok thanks. i already knew that the standard play was to shove here and that's what i did, but the issue that i had was with my relative position to the raiser. he's already essentially all in so i'm not worried about getting his money anymore.

i'm worried about getting the player in mp's money, in which case this isn't a standard 3betting scenario at all. from his perspective he bet .80 and now it's coming back to him at $20, which is an easy fold w FD and i think even brainless Q-holders have at least a chance of getting away from it too. in other words, the way i look at it is since the CO is out of the hand at this point ('cause monetarily he is) then this shove isn't very much like a 3bet. It's more like an overshove raise to a half pot bet (.80 to $20).

this is the issue that i had, with the fact that my shove doesn't really play like a 3bet, so it doesn't seem as simple to me to say 3bet it. i guess this isn't an issue to you guys though
04-15-2009, 01:45 PM
lockpull

Is this a shove only situation? Couldn't we just raise to like $10 (leaving 9.53 behind) still giving FD/str8 draw wrong odds to call then shoving the turn still giving the wrong odds for the draws to call to the river? Or are we better of just being happy with CO's stack here?
04-15-2009, 02:26 PM
Vinland

Quote:

i'm worried about getting the player in mp's money, in which case this isn't a standard 3betting scenario at all. from his perspective he bet .80 and now it's coming back to him at $20, which is an easy fold w FD and i think even brainless Q-holders have at least a chance of getting away from it too

Yeah...good point. Now I don't know...
I kind of like Lockpull's idea of raising to $10. Perhaps either situation is good.
I like the shove b/c you dont know what the others are going to do after you raise to $10. Likely they will fold to either situation so shoving wont affect them. Its just the MP...
I think I'm out of ideas...