A few HH's, please don't laugh

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (9 handed) - iPoker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP2 ($1.95)
Hero (MP3) ($4.20)
CO ($4.42)
Button ($5.62)
SB ($1.07)
BB ($0.56)
UTG ($5)
UTG+1 ($0.94)
MP1 ($4.79)

Preflop: Hero is MP3 with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
3 folds, MP2 bets $0.14, Hero raises to $0.42, 4 folds, MP2 raises to $1.95 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $0.90 | Rake: $0

iPoker No-Limit Hold'em, $0.04 BB (9 handed) - iPoker Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com

MP3 ($6.79)
Hero (CO) ($3.76)
Button ($4.94)
SB ($2.72)
BB ($5.50)
UTG ($0.96)
UTG+1 ($0.98)
MP1 ($0.94)
MP2 ($5.77)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, Jhttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif
3 folds, MP2 bets $0.16, 1 fold, Hero raises to $0.60, 3 folds, MP2 raises to $5.77 (All-In), 1 fold

Total pot: $1.26 | Rake: $0

No reads... but I'm behind the opponents range most of the time, right? Let's guess he's only 4bet/shoving with JJ+,AQs+,AQo+.

Are those the right kind of ranges to be putting people on? Sorry I'm rather new to this range thing, I've just moved up to $4nl, played about 2000 hands avg. 12bb/100 obviously that's just variance at the moment it'll probably drop to about 6-8 i guess unless i play solid constantly.

It was very difficult for me to fold those 2 hands, but I felt like it was right to do so... a month ago I wouldn't have.

Well the obvious leak I'm seeing here right now is your 3bet.

If you know you're beat with JJ, then fold. But honestly it would be more profitable for you to just call the $.16. If the person wants to get it all in preflop you're probably beat (depending on reads), but if you just call in these type situations and flop your set, you can easily stack them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

Well the obvious leak I'm seeing here right now is your 3bet.

If you know you're beat with JJ, then fold. But honestly it would be more profitable for you to just call the $.16. If the person wants to get it all in preflop you're probably beat (depending on reads), but if you just call in these type situations and flop your set, you can easily stack them.

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Sorry, what, I'm playing JJ for set value now? I don't see why I shouldn't be 3-betting with JJ here.

My question isn't whether I "know" I'm beat, but whether I'm using the correct thinking in guessing an opponents range.

Well that depends on reads you see. Not all players play the same. This one guy raised preflop 30% of the time so in Pokerstove if you give him the top 30% of hands you're a 68% favorite with JJ.

You can 3-bet with JJ here. What I'm wondering is why you're folding it after you do that. If you think you're beat here why do you 3-bet in the first place?

If you know this guy only plays AQo+ JJ+ for his 4bet you're still a favorite here 60/40.

ok, let's put it this way:

Before any opponent has their cards their range is 100%

If an opponent raises, theoretically his range is smaller than 100%, let's say, 30%

If he re-raises, his range should be even smaller than that, so let's say 10%

So if he only raises once, his range is 30%, but against a re-raise it's a lot tighter, so I wasn't saying "he only raises 30% of hands", but if someone 4bet/shoves you, their range must be very tight, yes?

And if he only 4bets JJ+, AQo+ then i'm a 42/57 underdog yeah.

Let's say in hand 1 your villain, and I'm hero. Your initial opening range is 30% of hands (pretty loose at this game and this position, but anyways). I have JJ. I KNOW I'm ahead of your opening range. This is simple.. I can plug your opening range [30%] and my hand into Pokerstove and I know my equity against your opening range. So a call is going to be +EV here with JJ. Agreed?

Now say that since I know I'm ahead of your opening range, I decide to 3bet. But now, we must look at not your opening range, but your 3bet calling range, or 4betting range. Our decision to 3bet has manipulated your range for the rest of the hand. If we are still ahead of your 3bet calling range, or 4betting range, then 3betting for value is obviously +EV. As we will be getting called by worse hands often enough.

However, if let's say in this case when we 3bet you only continue with QQ+, AK. That is you fold every other hand you opened with, and you either call our 3bet or 4bet us with that range {QQ+, AK}. Well then, 3betting is still +EV in this instance. The reason it's still +EV in this case when we are only getting called by better hands is simply due to our equity when called, and our fold equity. If you are raising 30% of hands but only continuing with 3% then you are continuing 10% of the time, or to put it better folding 90% of the time. If we 3bet a 4xbb open to 12xbb, our raise only has to work 68% of the time. So, yes a 3bet is +EV; however, it is no longer raising for value if villain is continuing with only better hands. And it's likely to not be the most +EV play that we can make in this instance.

So what ArcadianRock was getting at isn't that you should simply call to play JJ at set value. But that instead, if you think that when you 3bet he only continues with better hands then a 3bet is likely incorrect in this instance with JJ. Instead, call and play JJ against his much wider opening range.

Theoretically, you bet and raise because you expect worse hands to call or better hands to fold. If I am greater than 50% equity against the range of hands that villain will call a bet or raise with, then it is going to be a +EV bet/raise. If I'm not, then I must evaluate if calling is +EV. That is if I have enough equity to call given the pot odds I have. If I'm getting 2:1 pot odds, and I have >33% equity then a call is correct.

If I have ~40% equity against villain's betting range, and I'm getting 2:1, then a call is +EV, as I have more equity than needed. A raise for value would be incorrect as I would be behind villains bet/calling range. So the only other thing I must consider is whether it's more profitable to raise as a bluff, than call. If it is not, then since raising for value or as a bluff is less EV than calling, and calling is >0EV (which is the equivalent of a fold), then I should clearly call.

Here you are have enough equity to make a call profitable. Based on your reads and assumptions you do not have enough equity against his 3bet calling or 4betting range. Therefore, a raise for value is incorrect. And I bet if you do the math, with your significant equity versus his opening range plus your positional advantage, a call will be +EV in the long run, than a "bluff" 3bet here. So call and play against his wider range.

This obviously depends heavily on villain and his continuing range. If this particular villain is either calling your 3bet or 4betting with a wider range, such as {99+, AJ+}, then you have enough equity [51%] to 3bet for value and get the money in. However, fold equity also factors into this, and on average you will win more than merely 51% of the pot, because he will fold a significant portion of the time.

I see, yeah I can understand the logic in calling a 3bet now - although yes I realise the 3bets at this level are (well, according to PT3) around 8%, that still gives me like a 55/45 advantage.

And I know his point wasn't entirely to use JJ to set mine, there's a high chance i'll be an overpair to the board, and still ahead of his range. Yeah I think I get it now, that's cool. Thanks for spending the time to write such a detailed response - I really appreciate it. :)

Ummm... He didn't 3bet. You did.

I meant PFR, not 3bet.

But it makes sense to call, if I'll be ahead of his range, unlike 3betting which is forcing hands weaker than mine to fold, and stronger ones to call or raise.

If I apply that logic, my 3bet looks really stupid.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AdamThePirate

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ArcadianRock

Well the obvious leak I'm seeing here right now is your 3bet.

If you know you're beat with JJ, then fold. But honestly it would be more profitable for you to just call the $.16. If the person wants to get it all in preflop you're probably beat (depending on reads), but if you just call in these type situations and flop your set, you can easily stack them.

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Sorry, what, I'm playing JJ for set value now? I don't see why I shouldn't be 3-betting with JJ here.

My question isn't whether I "know" I'm beat, but whether I'm using the correct thinking in guessing an opponents range.

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JJ is an interesting hand, because it has value in 2 ways:

1. It often ends up the best hand heads-up or in a short-handed pot.

AND

2. One out of 8 times it flops a set.

What you have to understand is that when someone has an overpair, (1) is no longer true. But (2) still is.

So, ideally, what you would want to do is (a) get as much of your opponent's chips in as possible when your opponent is behind you pre-flop, (b) see the flop while not paying an exhorbitant amount of money when you are behind pre-flop but your opponent has a deep enough stack to pay you off at 7 1/2 to 1 odds if you hit a set of jacks, and (c) fold when you are behind and won't be paid off at 7 1/2 to 1.

Obviously, since you don't know Villain's hole cards, you can't do this. But what the ranges do is tell you whether you are likely to be ahead or behind, and therefore whether you should be playing to just get the chips into the pot, whether you should be playing to hit your set and get paid off, or whether you should be folding because your set isn't going to pay you off enough.