3betting questions

After going through my stats with a friend of mine who is winning at 400nl, he commented on my low 3bet percentage (<2%) which he says allows my opponents to play perfectly since my range is so polarized to KK/AA. Although this has still been working fine for me, he suggested slowly widening up my 3bet range in position so i can become more accustomed to playing in 3bet pots which occur much more often as you move up

1) Which sort of hands should I add to my 3betting range if i'm "3betting light"?
2) Which players would this be most optimal against?
3) How should i size my 3bet cbet?

4). What should your 3bet% be if <2% is too low?

You can't just add hands, it's gotta be against the right players. Don't do it with hands that have the potential to be dominated, especially against tight players. You probably already know this but I figured I'd throw it out anyway. Against a person who folds to 3bets like a religion, I'll do it with 72o+ until he tells me to stop.

This probably sounds stupid, but I think 3-betting light works best against other people who 3-bet.

At lower levels, a 3 bet almost always means AA or KK. The people who 3 bet know this, so they will assume that's what you've got and fold lesser hands that they just raised.

I ocassionally 3 bet 10 10, JJ, QQ or AK.

I typically 3 bet 4 or 5 times what's just been raised.

OP, what stake are you talking? 3betting "light" is probably bad below 25NL. And are you talking FR or 6max? Huge difference.

You need players to be opening wide. But you don't want them also calling wide and constantly playing back at you

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Originally Posted by poker_pup

I typically 3 bet 4 or 5 times what's just been raised.

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This is bad. You're just blowing them out of the pot. 3bet 3x (unless they opened small).

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Originally Posted by swiggidy

OP, what stake are you talking? 3betting "light" is probably bad below 25NL. And are you talking FR or 6max? Huge difference.

You need players to be opening wide. But you don't want them also calling wide and constantly playing back at you

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25NL FR

What would you suggest as a good bet size? All of my non-premium 3bets are going to be on the button

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...he-t77410.html

also as I general rule I 3x Ip and 4x OOP, note that I am generally only 3betting for value OOP.

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Originally Posted by Muzzard

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/3-betting-and-fold-equity-in-fr-nlhe-t77410.html

also as I general rule I 3x Ip and 4x OOP, note that I am generally only 3betting for value OOP.

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bookmarked

i don't understand completely the 3betting range below. why are there hands like K6s and not hands like AQ?

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3274/3betrangeov3.png

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Originally Posted by AFchung

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Originally Posted by Muzzard

http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/forum/3-betting-and-fold-equity-in-fr-nlhe-t77410.html

also as I general rule I 3x Ip and 4x OOP, note that I am generally only 3betting for value OOP.

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bookmarked

i don't understand completely the 3betting range below. why are there hands like K6s and not hands like AQ?

http://img89.imageshack.us/img89/3274/3betrangeov3.png

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Ok right now I won't fuly explain. In FR ranges are going to be fairly tight.

So we need to assign 2 3bet ranges. Value and bluff. We 3bet all our good hands for value, i.e AA/KK/AK and QQ to a certain extent.

We 3bet bluff the rest of our non-calling range. Our 3bet bluffing range is good if it contains blockers i.e one broadway card, has post flop equity ie connectors and suited cards. We are best off calling with a hand like AQ most time as it has post flop equity.

It's like QQ, in FR I may not 3ball it a lot, coz it has a lot of post flop equity and if i 3bet it and get 4balled, I may have to fold, so essentially I'm actually turning QQ into a bluff which is silly.

Our calling range includes +EV hands that we can play postflop that we dont want to 3b/foldto 4b as a bluff and arent in our stacking off pf.

The more ppl will stack off light preflop then the more we can add AQ and JJ/TT into our value 3b preflop.

Also, don't take my ranges for 3b bluff as gospel, it was only an example. Probably K6s is going to be a worse hand than 45s to 3ball.

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Originally Posted by Muzzard

Ok right now I won't fuly explain. In FR ranges are going to be fairly tight.

So we need to assign 2 3bet ranges. Value and bluff. We 3bet all our good hands for value, i.e AA/KK/AK and QQ to a certain extent.

We 3bet bluff the rest of our non-calling range. Our 3bet bluffing range is good if it contains blockers i.e one broadway card, has post flop equity ie connectors and suited cards. We are best off calling with a hand like AQ most time as it has post flop equity.

It's like QQ, in FR I may not 3ball it a lot, coz it has a lot of post flop equity and if i 3bet it and get 4balled, I may have to fold, so essentially I'm actually turning QQ into a bluff which is silly.

Our calling range includes +EV hands that we can play postflop that we dont want to 3b/foldto 4b as a bluff and arent in our stacking off pf.

The more ppl will stack off light preflop then the more we can add AQ and JJ/TT into our value 3b preflop.

Also, don't take my ranges for 3b bluff as gospel, it was only an example. Probably K6s is going to be a worse hand than 45s to 3ball.

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Shouldn't we 3bet a hand like QJ? it would narrow QQ and JJ from their range and KK/AA will probably 4bet us

1. poker theory is being misapplied greatly when it comes to 3betting light
2. basic mathematics is being ignored when is comes to 3betting light

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

1. poker theory is being misapplied greatly when it comes to 3betting light
2. basic mathematics is being ignored when is comes to 3betting light

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could you explain this spenda? If someone raises, and they have a high fold to 3bet percent, then if we bet the right amount as a bluff then the play will have positive ev right? So there has to be reasons why 3betting a wider range is profiitable. I feel like im missing something unless your talking just about the idea of 3betting a wider range "for deception".

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Originally Posted by JKDS

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

1. poker theory is being misapplied greatly when it comes to 3betting light
2. basic mathematics is being ignored when is comes to 3betting light

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could you explain this spenda? If someone raises, and they have a high fold to 3bet percent, then if we bet the right amount as a bluff then the play will have positive ev right? So there has to be reasons why 3betting a wider range is profiitable. I feel like im missing something unless your talking just about the idea of 3betting a wider range "for deception".

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It's quite simple really, when 3betting there are a few factors to consider. If we're talking about 3betting in a vacuum as +EV or -EV it's a basic math equation where we need:

1. A basic opening range for our opponent (and the subsequent combination of hands in that range)
2. The range we assume our opponent will continue with against a 3 bet (combinations in this range as well)
3. Our risk vs. gain $ or BB wise

Once we have this information it is quite easy to determine if a bluff-3bet is +EV or not.

In terms of poker theory, I'm constantly baffled at the types of hands players choose to 3bet in certain scenarios. These players are no doubt not thinking about how their hand plays against two very different ranges and thus creating some very bad reverse implied odds and negative EV situations from manipulating their opponents range to their disadvantage.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

In terms of poker theory, I'm constantly baffled at the types of hands players choose to 3bet in certain scenarios. These players are no doubt not thinking about how their hand plays against two very different ranges and thus creating some very bad reverse implied odds and negative EV situations from manipulating their opponents range to their disadvantage.

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I probably get to the same place spenda does but I get there in a different way.

Obviously, if you have one of the best starting hands in hold 'em, a 3 bet is not going to be a bad play 99 percent of the time. So go ahead and 3-bet your pocket aces and kings, and usually your queens, AK, and maybe jacks and tens as well. (How far down you go with this "mandatory 3 bet" range is up to you and based on what you think your opponents' raising range is.)

But the remainder of your 3 bets are going to be within a "discretionary 3 bet range", i.e., you need to take into account table conditions, position, and especially what you think your opponents are likely to do in reaction to your 3 bet.

Essentially, these 3 bets are like continuation bets only before the flop. You are representing that you have a bigger hand than perhaps you do, in the hope of creating some fold equity pre- and post-flop as well as increasing the size of the pot if you hit the flop.

But at the same time, you are putting a lot more money into the pot on a single hand AND by creating fold equity you are narrowing the field.

So what you want to do is ask yourself three questions (1) am I ahead of Villains' likely raising range pre-flop?, (2) given the way Villains play, am I creating a significant amount of fold equity in doing this?, and (3) do I have the type of hand that I actually would prefer to play against a smaller number of opponents?

You want to 3 bet when either the answer to (1) is yes or the answer to (2) is yes, but only in any case where the answer to (3) is yes.

So if it's yes-yes-yes, yes-no-yes, or no-yes-yes, you might want to 3 bet. If it is no-no-yes or x-x-no, you don't want to 3 bet.

your first question is incorrect and has nothing to do with anything

Spenda, I invite you to play the donks at the california casino no limit tables and then come back and tell me that you can't 3 bet for value when you are ahead of the villain's raising range.

I invite you to tell me how their PF opening range is relevant in determining if we're raising for value.

thanks spenda, that clears up alot.

Bigspenda, are you for example talking about 3betting SC's type of hands instead of high card hands?

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Originally Posted by minSim

Bigspenda, are you for example talking about 3betting SC's type of hands instead of high card hands?

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I think he's talking about 3b hands like AQ and TT where you blow worse hands out of the pot.

Of course, we should worry about how we stack up against the hands that call a 3b, not the hands that open.

Sure, AQ is a dominating favorite against someone's CO open range, but if he only flats (and mostly shoves) hands like AQ+,TT+ to a 3b you're turning AQ into a bluff. I think calling IP is better.

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I invite you to tell me how their PF opening range is relevant in determining if we're raising for value.

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to decide if we are 3betting for value we need to be thinking of the range villain continues with when facing a 3bet rather than their opening range.

From a theory point of view you'd rather have high cards in a 3bet pot, because they play well with a smaller SPR. SC's and the like want larger SPR's.

Also I'm not sure blowing worse hands out of the pot is that big of an issue if you think of the money all that FE is giving you. And if your villains are decent postflop (picking their aggressive spots and don't spew too much), calling isn't THAT profitable I guess. That's mostly OOP ofcourse, but IP as well.

I also think most micro and small stakes players often don't have that big of an edge postflop to make a large profit out of their hand outside playing the exact handstrength of that hand. And having the initiative often helps turning that around a bit in our favor, imo.

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Originally Posted by minSim

From a theory point of view you'd rather have high cards in a 3bet pot, because they play well with a smaller SPR. SC's and the like want larger SPR's.

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While that's true, that doesn't mean you should 3b hands like AJs because they play better than K9s

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Originally Posted by minSim

Also I'm not sure blowing worse hands out of the pot is that big of an issue if you think of the money all that FE is giving you. And if your villains are decent postflop (picking their aggressive spots and don't spew too much), calling isn't THAT profitable I guess. That's mostly OOP ofcourse, but IP as well.

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If you have that much FE, why not use the hands you CAN'T call with? As in the hands that are EV- to put in a call preflop. The best hands out of that range are the best candidates for 3b light.

My take on it is that 3-betting is supposed to make play easier, not harder. Its all about defining our opponents ranges and keeping them in the dark about ours.

3-betting is really not that complicated and works just as well against non-thinking players as it does against thinking players. In fact, I would find it easy to believe that it works much better against a 25NL player than it does against a 400NL reg who can adjust.

Each hand we 3-bet with, whether it be our "light" range or our "value" range is a tool to increase our overall win-rate, simple as that.

We need to understand how ranges stack up against each other when choosing our 3-betting hands. Whether or not I consider a 3-bet is defined by my opponents range, position, aggression, and history between us. Also, each of our images at the table right now weighs greatly on my decisions.

I 3-bet "weak" hands like SCs and big suited cards when fold equity is high and my hand is disguised in case they have a hand they can flat a 3-bet with. And once again.. FE is typically high for at least 2 streets against most flatting ranges, so don't be a pus*** postflop if its a good c-bet flop for villain's 3-bet flatting range. Whether FE is high or not is a judgment call and I will leave it to the better players to teach you how to do this.

As for AQ... why the hell would I 3-bet it unless its clearly for "value?" If called what flop am I hoping for with against a typical player? Q56? QJ9? We are crushed by a lot of his calling range here and cannot be that confident on our hand. I would much rather have a flop of Q56 with my 78 than I would with my AQ in a 3-bet pot.. Or a flop of QJc9c with my Kc6c.. at least I have consistent equity over ranges and can most likely profitably stack. FE doesn't really help us with AQ because worse hands fold and ones that either crush us or flop well against us call or 4-bet.. ie. QQ, AK, JJ, 1010.

I 3-bet strong hands to destroy a villain's implied odds and get more money in the pot preflop, making a postflop stack off easier with a lower SPR. Always play preflop monsters fast. The nature of your 3-betting range should help allow it to get maximum value due to your image.

Besides all of this.. 3-betting is fun. It pisses people off and can turn them into an ATM. (tilt induced) People tend to get more angry at you for stacking them with K6 than with AK.

An example of why we 3-bet "light" and why we choose certain hands is below.

Scenario 1- We 3-bet KsQs and the flop is KhQc2c
Scenarion 2- We 3-bet Kc6c and the flop is KhQc2c

In both hands our opponent has KK. Both of these scenarios suck, but which hand would you rather have? You are going to stack in both situations.. but which was the better hand to 3-bet preflop? KQ you are never getting away from.. if the board wasn't 4-flushed you could still get away from K6.. and when something unfortunate like this does happen, you will not lose your ass every time.

Board: Kh Qc 2c
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 00.101% 00.10% 00.00% 2 0.00 { KQs }
Hand 1: 99.899% 99.90% 00.00% 1978 0.00 { KK }

Board: 2c Kh Qc
Dead:

equity win tie pots won pots tied
Hand 0: 28.182% 28.18% 00.00% 279 0.00 { Kc6c }
Hand 1: 71.818% 71.82% 00.00% 711 0.00 { KK }



Of course I still consider myself a beginner.. so feel free to tear this response apart. :)

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Originally Posted by bigspenda73

I invite you to tell me how their PF opening range is relevant in determining if we're raising for value.

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Yes, their range in calling or re-raising a 3 bet is important. If all your 3-bet is going to do is cause worse hands to fold and better hands to stay in, it isn't a very good idea.

But their pre-flop opening range is also relevant. Because what you are doing with a 3-bet is putting more money into the pot. There are two ways this can work out for you: (1) if you create enough fold equity so that a hand that would have beaten you had it seen the flop folds, and (2) because you are simply ahead in the hand and are betting your hand.

Bear in mind, as a first level poker strategy, it is never a negative expected value play to put money into the pot when you are a statistical favorite to win it, as long as you get a caller. A lot of this discussion is obscuring this fact, but that doesn't make it any less true.