DISCIPLINE

Ok right now I have a major problem with my game, and its discipline. Sometimes I just get in this incredibly spewy mode where I run huge bluffs, call down light, and most of the time tilt away BI's. Just wondering how some of you avoid doing this?? If I didn't do stupid shit like this I honestly think my win rate would be at least double what it is. Here is an example from tonight:

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed)

Hero (CO) ($11)
Button ($16)
SB ($7.50)
BB ($10)
UTG ($22.20)
MP ($16.10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.50, 4 folds, MP calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.25) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.80, MP calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.85) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $2.50, MP calls $2.50

River: ($7.85) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $7.20 (All-In), MP calls $7.20

Total pot: $22.25

I have tons of examples like this and also where I make ridiculously stupid calls when I know I'm beat. Makes me want to throw up.

Advice?

Ahhh...I just had a hand just like that as well. It's sick. I wouldn't really put this under discipline though, it's more of a focus issue for me. Focus AND discipline I guess. I like to see where this thread leads...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BooG690

Ahhh...I just had a hand just like that as well. It's sick. I wouldn't really put this under discipline though, it's more of a focus issue for me. Focus AND discipline I guess. I like to see where this thread leads...

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def agree. some of these hands where I lose big and shouldn't have lost as much involve overlooking key stats or pieces of information, so focus is also a problem.

discipline, focus, tilt all go in the same sentence.

I was hoping you had some good advice ;).

I do think this is a big difference between the solid winning players on this site and those of us struggling up the ranks.

All I have to say is if your on a roll your on a roll.. but nothing good lasts forever my friend... I find it very relaxing when I know I'm going into these "spells" to sit out and watch some tv.... I get all the ESPN channels and 22 hours of the days they are showing repeats of the WSOP events... this let me put things back into perspective and come back to the table with a calm, fresh, positive attitude.

PATIENCE IS THE KEY. The True players love and benifit from those players that just throw all in after a bad beat with 2 7 off suit or just blow up and throw there money/chips away another way.

I will say it again and again... act like an android, show no emotion, feel no emotion. Go by logic and you will end up at least breaking even.

Peace Out,
Justin.

I find myself sick to my stomach when I all of a sudden donk my chips away with only top pair against a guy whom I KNOW has the straight. Why do I do it if I know he has the straight? I really don't know the answer to that...but hopefully getting it out in the open and letting everybody know will give me a reason to avoid making these stupid, spewy plays.

As a matter of fact, I may just post every spewy hand on my part on this post from this point forward. That way...I'll have FTR's finest to tear me apart limb from limb and I'll have a reason not to do it again!

Yeah I have a problem like this too. I'm fine with folding top, but as soon as I have an overpair to the board or better I go into this fucked up mental lock where I feel really bad about folding anything. I KNOW I'm beat when the guy c/r's the turn and I start to justify a fold in my head. Then the other shitty locked part of my mind intervenes and I end up mashing the call or raise button. After the hand I look at it and think: wow I knew he had that and I just chose to give away money instead of keeping it.

My solution: not yet sure if this works fully yet, but this is what I do.

1. Write a poker oath on your computer somewhere, print it out or set it as your background or w/e. It will basically say something like: "If I ever make a retarded call that I KNOW deep down is bad just out of tiltedness then I will stop playing poker for 2 weeks as I will not deserve to play the game until I have learned to treat it with the full dedication it deserves."

This is extreme, but it will reinforce better play and making those laydowns because when you don't have a good reason to call you will remember this oath. Anyone with any self respect will certainly stop to think before spazzing out. Plus the fear of not playing for however long you make your ban for will help sinc we iz all addicted to poakrs.

2. At the start of a session and during a session befroe a spot like this comes up, I'll constantly just remind myself "don't make stupid tilt calls" I think to myself that if a spot ;like that comes up I am frehsly prepared to handle it properly without emotion. This constant thinking will keep you robotic and focussed enough to prevent spazzing.

3. Just always try to put your opponent on a range of hands and work out briefly how you fare against his stacking off range in these spots. THis will help prevent you making bullshit justifications for making the wrong play like "Ohh he has a missed flush draw always here!!"

Hope these help, they're still in testing over here, but I think I'm on the right track.

Through my numerous spewy sessions and move-downs and re-tools the one most important thing I've learned is that in order to be successful over a long period of time your only true desire in poker must be to make the decisions that have the greatest positive expected value, instead of, for example, making money or moving up stakes or getting back at someone who sucked out on you. As long as you keep as your fundamental goal to play great poker, you can avoid those states of mind that lead to tilt and spew.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parasurama

Through my numerous spewy sessions and move-downs and re-tools the one most important thing I've learned is that in order to be successful over a long period of time your only true desire in poker must be to make the decisions that have the greatest positive expected value, instead of, for example, making money or moving up stakes or getting back at someone who sucked out on you. As long as you keep as your fundamental goal to play great poker, you can avoid those states of mind that lead to tilt and spew.

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I have the same problem as the OP and my strategy for addressing it is similar to this one. It's basically the same thing on one level after another. First we play AA because it's a strong hand and we go broke with it. Then we learn about absolute versus relative hand strength and go broke with a different hand. Then we learn about opponents and playing tendencies and go broke in other places. Then we learn about image, bluff frequency, randomization through hand equity etc etc etc - every lesson we learn teaches us not to go broke in one particular way or type of situation. Basically what it boils down to is if we have a strategy for the situations we face that is profitable. Every hand we play is simply a test of our strategy - when we play a hand without knowing what strategical principles should be guiding our decision and what our hand range should be for the different lines we can take and why those hand ranges and lines are profitable to play - we fail as poker players.

I'm still a horrible spew monkey, but I think I see the way to make myself less of one.

Ok so it sounds like one plausible solution is to have some negative consequence associated with these spewy -EV plays. Some ideas already brought up are:

--Write a poker oath and stop playing for a while if you break the oath
--Post hands on FTR for feedback
--Take a break for a little while and do something else

One idea I just had based on the second idea above is to create an official FTR spewy plays thread where people post HH's and everyone else makes fun of your horrendous play until you stop doing it. Would you guys post in a thread like this?

The oath idea sounds pretty good except it might not work for me because after 4 days I would be wanting to play again and probably just say fuck it.

Other ideas brought up are to constantly remind yourself to not make tilty plays and to constantly remind yourself to play in the most +EV way. I've heard other players mention these strategies before so maybe there is something there.

Happens to all of us...
I happens to some degree with me when a particular LiTT (limp tight) player limps and calls my raise....I just go in auto mode and assume he has garbage and cant beat my A high....

The next time you do it...make yourself sit on a chair full of thumtacks for the next session....that will correct the problem... :twisted:

I think it's important that you can justify your call not just at the moment (because we all justify it in the heat of the moment), but tomorrow and the next day.

One thing you can do is that might help is record your sessions and talk through them as if you were making a video. Pretend that everyone will be watching this video, and if you can't give everyone a good reason out loud why you should make a certain plan, then you probably shouldn't be making said play.

Even if you don't record your session, pretend that you are making a video and talk outloud while you play. It's difficult to do but you eventually get used to it and it'll help because it'll force you to have a thought process and explain it, rather than clicking mindlessly.

discipline is probably the most important trait to have to be successful at poker. btw, i like the way you play the hand.

I think the suggestion of having a mantra or slogan or rule that you hold yourself to is great. I think its best to just walk away if you take a bad beat or out drawn and you feel yourself heading towards tilt.

I don't think enough of us take as many breaks from the game as we should. I'm starting to follow a schedule that is similar if I was at my desk job. Taking 15 min breaks here and there, etc. Its helps my mood considerably.

Here's a tip that may not go over well. But if you are really prone to tilt (and not everyone is-- this is ONLY applicable to people who are really prone to tilt), try to err on the side of being a nit if you think you are tilting.

In other words, the big danger during tilt is to start spewing your money out on negative expected value plays, convincing yourself that hands are in opponent's ranges that are not to justify bets, etc.

So if you find yourself tilting, try nitting up a lot. This isn't necessarily the best way to play poker generally, but it is a good way of fighting tilt because you will avoid a lot of the situations where you end up throwing your money into negative EV plays. When you get off tilt, you can loosen up your game a bit again.

my problem is that i often don't realize i'm on tilt until after the damage is done.

...not such a bad suggestion to tighten up but i need to gain a little foresight for that to work.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kfaess

One idea I just had based on the second idea above is to create an official FTR spewy plays thread where people post HH's and everyone else makes fun of your horrendous play until you stop doing it. Would you guys post in a thread like this?

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I'd definitely post in a thread like that...though hopefully I won't have to too much.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LawDude

Here's a tip that may not go over well. But if you are really prone to tilt (and not everyone is-- this is ONLY applicable to people who are really prone to tilt), try to err on the side of being a nit if you think you are tilting.

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It's funny...I've actually done this before. However, I'll always find a reason to call even when I know I'm beat with my aces. So unfortunately, this doesn't work for me. Hopefully it does for you though!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LawDude

Here's a tip that may not go over well. But if you are really prone to tilt (and not everyone is-- this is ONLY applicable to people who are really prone to tilt), try to err on the side of being a nit if you think you are tilting.

In other words, the big danger during tilt is to start spewing your money out on negative expected value plays, convincing yourself that hands are in opponent's ranges that are not to justify bets, etc.

So if you find yourself tilting, try nitting up a lot. This isn't necessarily the best way to play poker generally, but it is a good way of fighting tilt because you will avoid a lot of the situations where you end up throwing your money into negative EV plays. When you get off tilt, you can loosen up your game a bit again.

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I'm probably different from most but one of the worst ways I would respond to a bad run was nitting up. I would stop thinking about how to exploit maximally each situation and instead focus on trying to out-cooler my opponents. I would miss value, miss opportunities for well-timed bluffs, and forget about my ability to outmaneuver my opponents postflop as my plays became more and more dependent on my own holdings. Nitting up works when you start catching hands and getting paid, but if you're running cold it makes tilt substantially worse imo.

To add to LawDude's post is to not push your chips in with small edges if you tilt easily. I have a friend who goes on tilt after he loses a big pot, and usually goes off to spew another bi or two after that. In a case such as my friend's, for example, you have an open ended straight flush draw, but you know your opponent has an overpair, although it is +EV to push, it might not be the best option since you may lose more in future hands. But on the other hand, it's great to get guys like my friend tilting by pushing your small edges.

A good general tip would be not to risk all your chips on a bluff. When you bluff, you should make it believable. If you're doing this, you should really take a break.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Parasurama

Quote:

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Originally Posted by LawDude

Here's a tip that may not go over well. But if you are really prone to tilt (and not everyone is-- this is ONLY applicable to people who are really prone to tilt), try to err on the side of being a nit if you think you are tilting.

In other words, the big danger during tilt is to start spewing your money out on negative expected value plays, convincing yourself that hands are in opponent's ranges that are not to justify bets, etc.

So if you find yourself tilting, try nitting up a lot. This isn't necessarily the best way to play poker generally, but it is a good way of fighting tilt because you will avoid a lot of the situations where you end up throwing your money into negative EV plays. When you get off tilt, you can loosen up your game a bit again.

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I'm probably different from most but one of the worst ways I would respond to a bad run was nitting up. I would stop thinking about how to exploit maximally each situation and instead focus on trying to out-cooler my opponents. I would miss value, miss opportunities for well-timed bluffs, and forget about my ability to outmaneuver my opponents postflop as my plays became more and more dependent on my own holdings. Nitting up works when you start catching hands and getting paid, but if you're running cold it makes tilt substantially worse imo.

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Maybe we need to take a step back then and ask what you do when you go on tilt.

I don't go on tilt much anymore, but my image of myself tilting (and other steaming players) is making desperate efforts to stay in hands, make aggressive plays, and win big pots when you are likely behind or don't have the table image to pull it off. If that's your style of tilting, then nitting up is a good idea, because even if you are missing some opportunities, bad folds cost much less than bad calls, re-raises, and all-ins.

But if your style of tilt is different-- if you tilt by being afraid to play hands you should be playing, always fearing the monster around every corner, then no, nitting up is not a good response.

I think everyone has problem with it one time or another. I made myself these rules:

If I lose 10% BR, I'll take a at least one hour break. Maybe go read some forums or check poker tracker on all my losing hands and analyze them. If it's just a bad beat, just let it be. but take a break.

If I lose 20% BR, I'll take the rest of the day off. Tell myself repeatedly "I WILL NOT PLAY until I sleep and wake up again". Read some more, watch some videos, learn. When I lose a lot I get motivated to get better. It gets really tempting to go back on and "win it back", but just have to realize, the win it back mentality is the worst. I ask myself, what if I lose even more? Again, check poker tracker on all the major losing hand, ask yourself, could it have been played better?

If I lose my stack at a table, I leave that table. Its so easy to get into the mentality "He made such a bad call and beat me. He's such a fish I bet I can suck more value from him. I'm gonna get it back from him." It's the worst when you try to beat someone or get back at someone, instead of winning money.

Also, find at least another hobby or two. It's unhealthy for a person to have poker as their only thing and devote his life to it due to the high variance nature of the game (most of the time I wonder how the pros do it). so when you are playing badly, just stop, and go do other things that are interesting. If you have nothing to occupy your life other than poker, its much easier to go on tilt.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by kfaess

Ok right now I have a major problem with my game, and its discipline. Sometimes I just get in this incredibly spewy mode where I run huge bluffs, call down light, and most of the time tilt away BI's. Just wondering how some of you avoid doing this?? If I didn't do stupid shit like this I honestly think my win rate would be at least double what it is. Here is an example from tonight:

No-Limit Hold'em, $0.10 BB (6 handed)

Hero (CO) ($11)
Button ($16)
SB ($7.50)
BB ($10)
UTG ($22.20)
MP ($16.10)

Preflop: Hero is CO with Ahttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif, 10http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...es/diamond.gif
UTG calls $0.10, MP calls $0.10, Hero bets $0.50, 4 folds, MP calls $0.40

Flop: ($1.25) 7http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...miles/club.gif, 4http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif, 6http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/spade.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $0.80, MP calls $0.80

Turn: ($2.85) 5http://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $2.50, MP calls $2.50

River: ($7.85) Khttp://www.flopturnriver.com/phpBB2/...iles/heart.gif (2 players)
MP checks, Hero bets $7.20 (All-In), MP calls $7.20

Total pot: $22.25

I have tons of examples like this and also where I make ridiculously stupid calls when I know I'm beat. Makes me want to throw up.

Advice?

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What range do you think he called your preflop raise with? I am guessing pps 22+? 45s, 67s, 78s+? Big cards? How many of those hands are folding to a c-bet? I think all hands we are ahead of fold this flop.. and definitely do not float the turn. Check/fold the river.

As for advice on tilt, its the hardest and most important thing for any good player to overcome. Its like being on a diet. Ask yourself a simple question before you act. "Will this twinkie help me lose weight?" If the answer is no.. don't eat the damn thing!

Except its more like.. "will shoving the river when I'm obviously beat grow my bankroll any?" Or whatever situation you happen to be in.. insert here and apply.

Another fix is to buy a tiltmonkey and give it a hammer.. set him on the desk next to you every time you tilt off a buy-in have him nail you in the head.

I like RML's suggestion. Do you ever say your thoughts out loud, and possibly even what different things you're going to do while you're waiting for your opponents? It seems to help me process things more clearly when I'm my own commentator ("Alright, I'll fire this much, because I don't think he can call this bet unless he has the ace. If he does anything besides fold I'm going to shut down on this hand...")

A lack of tilt comes with experience. However, I find it helps to avoid become positively emotional about good runs to avoid jumping off tall buildings during bad. If I find myself wanted to get angry, sometimes a joke will help to relieve my stress. "And... 5-2 is the winner... and Carl, I'll tell you why he called: "it was s0000000000ted!".
Last, but most important, when you recognize the mood associated with anything less then A game, and have failed to prevent it - stop playing.